NEEPS

Maidenstone · Neepster Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 303

Aberdeenshire Environmental Forum are holding a micro renewables fair on Saturday 10th October in the Thainstone Exchange at the mart in Inverurie. There will be stalls from manufacturers/dealers of wind generators, solar water and PV panels, heat pumps, hydro schemes, pellet stoves etc., plus some of the local Government agencies involved with renewable energy and grants etc.

If anyone knows of a company involved with the above that might want to take part, please make suggestions, especially if they are local, so that visitors to the fair can get stuff 'from the horses' mouths'!

It will be a bit like a tiny All Energy Show that was held at the AECC earlier this year, but aimed at home owners and businesses.
_________________
Local food - better by far!

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

My advice would be to heed the excellent old advice of "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware)........ The giveaway is the much-weaselled word "micro" when applied to renewables - that use was developed by a certain manufacturer of totally discredited roof-mounted chocolate teapots (the ones B&Q are now having to offer refunds on........)
The right renewable technology, properly applied does indeed "do what it says on the tin", but beware, there are a great many snake-oil salesmen about!
In brief - roof or building mounted wind turbines will NEVER pay back, and will probably keep you awake when the wind does blow.
Heat pumps? - do your sums VERY carefully, if you're on mains gas, it's usually FAR cheaper to stick with what you've got - heat pumps use THE most expensive form, of energy going - electricity (the only time I can make the sums add up is for people who are generating their own electricity)
Solar hot water heating - excellent technology, tubed systems are FAR more efficient in marginal areas than "flat plates", and at the beginning/end of the season, anyone charging more than circa £4k for an average installation is profiteering!
PV panels - wonderful fit and forget technology, but pricey!
"Agencies" offering grants can often be a snare into paying double the money for the same installation - nearly all the companies signed up for such schemes just put their prices skywards.....
(down here, you should get a good average solar hot water installation for around £3k, go for the £400 grant, most companies will be charging £6k - do your own sums!)
Hope that helps.........
_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk

Maidenstone · Neepster Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 303

This is exactly what we are trying to make people realise and to help them make an informed choice when it comes to 'making' their own energy. It is a real shame you don't operate here in the north east of Scotland, as in many cases companies are only interested in selling you their machines/stoves/solar panels once you show an interest, and it is difficult for householders to find out exactly which system would be best for them. Is it too far to ask you to have a stall at our fair?! The north east of Scotland has half the annual rainfall they get on the west coast, so more sunny days, and we have our fair share of wind, so it is an ideal place for renewable energy.
At the fair we are also featuring temperature imaging camera technology so folk can find out exactly where the heat is escaping, before making more.
Thanks for your post - just the sort of thing we need to know!
_________________
Local food - better by far!

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

Much as I'd love to have a stall, I'm afraid it's a bit far for me - BUT, I'm always happy to give people advice through the forum - I'm passionate about the good that renewables can do, but never cease to be amazed at the downright crookedness of some of the people who've leapt on the bandwagon, from manufacturers, through various "bodies" to government itself.... Get the choices right, that fit your needs and pocket, renewables are brilliant, but there are many pitfalls!

The best advice I can give anyone is to "start backwards" - there's no point pouring energy into a bucket with holes in, so do two things first - insulate until it hurts, then insulate some more (some of the grants for insulation are some of the few worth having), then minimise your consumption of energy - all the "usual" things like energy-saving lightbulbs, if you have a gas boiler, get an energy efficient one - get an "energy meter" to see how much electricity various things are using, and act accordingly........ dare to think the unthinkable (electric fridges and freezers EAT power - could I do without completely?, or would a bottled gas one be better?) - then when you've minimised the energy you're using, THEN look at capturing some......

_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk

Maidenstone · Neepster Joined: 14 May 2008 Posts: 303

It is indeed the best advice!
One of my neighbours applied for planning permission for one of those dreadful roof-mounted wind '?generators' and I tried to put them off - it was only sloth on the part of B&Q that stopped them doing it. Now they have put solar water panels on their roof, and I asked them if they'd brought their loft insulation up to scratch - "no, but we must get round to that some time!" Talk about a bucket with holes!!
As you are happy to give people advice through this forum I hope other Neeps will take advantage of your kind offer - it is good to hear someone talking sense for once!
_________________
Local food - better by far!

JamesB · Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:43 pm Post subject:

totally agree with what has been said, we spent all our spare money on insulation and airtightness.
Solar hot water made sense for a new build like ours since with that and a wood burning stove then thats all the heating we require. The payback for solar hot water can be one of the best.
We didn't bother with a grant due to hassles and since we do quite a bit ourselves and had an interested plumber then worked out better I think.

Did briefly consider PV but too expensive and are considering large wind turbine in the next 5 years.

James

P.s our previous house had a heat pump and was worth it for us since we didn't have mains gas. If you do then dont bother at the moment.
_________________
JamesB
Mintlaw area

gussyboy · Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject:

Great advice coming across here.
The problem I have with a lot of these schemes and technologies is that they seem to be deliberately hight-tech and oil dependent ( or at least dependent on cheap, easily accessible oil ) which is a finite resource and, if you study peak oil scenarios, is becoming more and more inaccessible to the industrialised world.

Try to think hard about what you REALLY need. Absolutely, ask what might seem like silly questions , "Do I need a fridge, a washing machine, a dishwasher, tumble drier etc..?"

The danger here is that most people seem to think that if you don't live in a three bedroom semi in the suburbs, the only alternative is living in a cave! It's very black and white and is encouraged to be that way by the media. There are an almost infinite number of choices out there...you just have to keep looking.

How you can make many of these add-on's to your home from simple - often recycled - materials.

Check out some of the websites about home made solar hot water heaters etc.

Also be cautious about the big companies ( like shell BP ) who say they are the largest makers of solar panels in the world...they only say that because over the last ten years they have bought up as many small companies producing solar panels as they could.
A strategy for boosting thier green credentials?
When the credit crunch hit, what's the first part of their company to be shelved? You guessed it.

The technophiles will tell you that 'they' ( usually meaning scientists ) will come up with something to solve all our problems.
I suggest we start doing that for ourselves at an individual level and , more effectively at a community level.

Look forward to more ideas!

cheers, Gussyboy
_________________
Information is not knowledge,
Knowledge is not wisdom,
Wisdom is not truth,
Truth is not beauty,
Beauty is not love,
Love is the best.

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

"home made solar hot water heaters" is an example of yet another thing that is often hyped - although very much at the "other end" from the frantically expensive, tv advertised, foot-in-the door salesman sold rubbish, ALWAYS do your sums very carefully - there are plans and websites out there that purport to show you how to make a solar hot water panel cheaply......
by the time you've bought all the bits, especially the specialist silicon piping, you end up with a panel that is a pretty poor "clone" of probably the worst-performing panel on the market.... then add in a horrid cheapo placcy pump that is hopelessly unreliable, and several people who'll sell you a "cheap" controller kit that you run off a pv panel - and you'll have spent MORE than buying a pukka 20 vacuum tubed system, basic controller and mains pump that really DOES perform! (There are snake-oil salesmen at both ends of the market!)
I'm in no way against recycling, or using ingenuity, just got very used to casting a cynical eye over ALL renewables......
I'm 100% in accord with you about asking the "hard" questions like the wisdom of having a fridge/freezer at all.....
I tend to start with what I can actually exist happily with when caravanning
(off grid) - anything else is a luxury........ In summer, one 20w pv panel, 85 amp/hr battery and controller will pump my water, give me light, power my portable tv and Asus EEE computer, car radio "sounds", heater blower if I need heat, charge my cameras and other small batteries........ and 5 litres of warm water is sufficient for a luxurious shower - any more is luxury!

_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk

gussyboy · Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:44 am Post subject:

Good point about snake - oil salesmen at both ends of the market. Although having said that, many of the sites I mean aren't actually selling anything except ideas.
I should have said, if the site doesn't have a full set of specs and performance figures for the gizmo, don't go there.
My own philosophy is to look at all these home made alternatives and take the best bits from each of them, spending the serious money on things which must be dependable and substituting wherever you can with recycled components.
In the same way, I've spent the last few years studying housing/shelter from all over the world, picking and choosing the best bits from them to create a kind of hybrid building design.
The danger again is that traditional ways of manufacturing in industrialised countries has actually limited people's choices instead of improving them.
The beauty of the internet ( my favourite invention since the wheel ), is that it gives people a genuine choice beyond their normal scope.
Again though, 'caveat emptor'

cheers, gussyboy
_________________
Information is not knowledge,
Knowledge is not wisdom,
Wisdom is not truth,
Truth is not beauty,
Beauty is not love,
Love is the best.