NEEPS

wildgarlic · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:10 am Post subject:

A friend who used to live in Lumsden had bees in her outbuilding - they took up residence there rather than being introduced. Is this what you mean by wild?
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Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

Better insulated than a double-skin hive? - I think that would be arguable, according to what design and materials were used in both

All I know on the "cold winter" front is that top bar hives are used widely with no problems everywhere from Africa to Northern Europe (Germany, Sweden etc) -and a great many are used the States - keeping the bees warm enough would not appear to be a major issue
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Diana · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:19 am Post subject:

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

Swarming is entirely natural behaviour that can to some extent be controlled by the way you manage the hives. I suspect that almost all "wild bees" are from "escaped" swarms these days, and they can take up residence in buildings, hollow trees etc., where they "just get on with it", building their own combs.

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JumbleJim · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:38 am Post subject:

Yes, but it doesn't seem to happen as readily up here compared with warmer climes. I also wonder about the comparison of winters....it is often said that our winters are cold and wet, with frequently changing weather...in continental Europe and in the States, the cold is different...prolonged and "dry" (in the sense of a lower relative humidity). High humidity and cold coupled with one day cold next relatively warm, etc, is a completely different kettle of fish.

Martin said:

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

I'm not an expert by any manner of means, my understanding is that if left to their own devices, and allowed to "do it their way", they are far less stressed, healthier, and better able to cope with things like varroa - certainly it can be argued that letting them build their own combs is "wasteful" - on the other hand, top bar hives are not designed for the economic expediency of the beekeeper, but to allow the bees as natural a life as possible (it is generally considered good practice to leave as much honey as they need for their needs through the winter, rather than substituting entirely inferior sugar)

If there is a "theory" it is that the bad practices of the last 150 years are all coming together, and playing a part in the problems that bees are having at the moment - pre-made, insecticide-riddled comb of an unnatural size and design, suppression of natural drives (like building drone comb), feeding an inferior honey substitute etc - top-bar beekeeping is not designed for our convenience, but the bees (for a change......)
Having kept laying hens on a commercial scale, I think a very good analogy would be that "conventional" beekeeping is like battery hens, "natural" beekeeping is just that - the equivalent of "free range" - my experience suggesting that if you give the chickens what they need, they stay naturally healthy and productive...........
Last but not least, although there is no way you can control what your bees land on and bring back to the hive, commercially produced wax combs can, and often do contain all sorts of contaminants that we are best without
(including organophosphate residues).
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Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

another indication of the "difference" is the matter of "smoke" - noone (except "barefoot beekeepers") questions the use of it in "subduing" bees......
what it actually does is says to the poor creatures that their home is on fire, so they stuff themselves with honey in preparation for mass exodus.......
Natural beekeepers have found that a fine water spray is just as effective, causes far less disruption, and normal hive activity is much less affected, and all activity resumes far faster after it's use - which is eminently sensible - at the risk of anthropomorphisation, it's a lot less stressful if someone yells "it's raining" than "FIRE"

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JumbleJim · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:16 am Post subject:

I have found that smoking is more effective if you use very little corrugated cardboard to get things going and then use plenty of dried grass...it seems to produce a more calming smoke than that from the commercially available cardboard smoker cartridges. I have to say that I find the idea of using a fine water spray intriguing and will give this a go....whenever I have handled bees in moist conditions they have seemed to be less than happy at getting wet

I agree about leaving honey on over winter. I have used this technique for the last two winters and have had no problems whilst other nearby beekeepers have lost their colonies.

As with many things like this, a real problem is that often beekeepers change several things at the same time in relation to their practices. All this achieves is confusion as to exactly what altered condition has really improved life for the bees.

Incidentally, I do feel that some of your descriptions of what goes on in a modern beehive is perhaps a little too dramatic.....let's keep things in perspective, beekeeping is still a very natural process, even as modified over the last 100 years. Honey, especially that produced in the UK, is some of the finest, most naturally pure food possible....any contaminants are there in such miniscule amounts, and analysis of British honey shows that it has very little in the way of contaminants. I'm not sure you could say that of honey shipped in from elsewhere.

What I am in favour of is beekeeping on a small scale.....as such the beekeeper and the bees are bound to have a much closer relationship and the beekeeper can respond much more readily to the needs of the bees. I'm not in favour of leaving them to their own devices since this can lead to all sorts of problems, and, more importantly, I like to see what my bees are doing, they are such fascinating animals.

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

Most imported honey is indeed filthy in comparison to UK honey, but it doesn't mean that UK beekeeping is beyond reproach.
As for "babies and bathwater", top bar hives (and Warre hives and their variants) are by no manner of means a new idea, but are a result of many years of continuous development - there are a lot of very good brains who have, and continue to do really good work in the "natural beekeeping" field.
Phil Chandler, for instance has "worked with Brother Adam at Buckfast" on his beekeeping cv.
Certainly "natural beekeeping" can be a shock to the system to those used to "conventional" methods - it questions so many "orthodoxies" seemingly all at once, but to my mind "feels" far more natural and "right". I came to beekeeping as one of those people who wanted to do their bit toward saving a valuable part of our ecosystem - some honey is a pleasant by-product, but certainly not my main motivation.
If you're interested in perhaps restarting beekeeping you'd be made very welcome on their forum, and you'd get chapter and verse from experts from all round the globe - even if you want to use "conventional" hives - they're a very broad church!

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JumbleJim · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:51 am Post subject:

Thanks Martin, I will certainly take a look....although I tend to think that you find a technique and set of practices that work for you and then stick to it until something goes wrong (old dog...new tricks

) but I'm always interested in new/old ideas and look forward to hearing how you get on (hopefully with some photographs too). As I said, one of the main objects I have is just looking at the bees and observing their behaviour so I don't mind lifting the lids on my hives and disturbing them.....and I don't think they mind either. Mind you, I once was given a colony that hadn't been touched for seven years...."there ye'are boy, if you care to come and get them, they're yours"......they had the instincts of killer bees and I needed triple layers of clothing to stop the stings hitting home (and always in the most sensitive areas

).