NEEPS

annepan001 · Neepster Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Midmar

Thanks Diana. I wonder if that was Paul van Midden at lembas, who's at Bridge of Muchalls?

I'm not that bothered about getting honey from the bees (tho I'm sure that will change if I keep them!

) ... but I'm really keen to have loads of happy healthy honey bees on the farm, pollinating away, and getting the benefit of all the red clover we grow. There's good heather on Barmekin hill a couple of fields away too.

And we've planted loads of trees on the farm, so once they start flowering there's another food source for the bees ... now all I need to do is to arm myself with information and take the plunge!

Can you recommend any good books on the subject? I know there are lots around, but where to start?
_________________
Be the change you want to see in the world

Lord_Azrael · Neepster Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 372 Location: Alves

I'm not sure you could really guarantee having Organic bees. I suppose unless you can 100% guarantee that they only fly to areas of land that are organically managed then there is the probability that they will be in contact with non-organic fields?
I know what you mean though, I try to garden organically, but I'm in a farm cottage and our farmer, when he goes around with the tractor and fertiliser, ends up flinging some across into my garden, so I could never actually claim to be organic.
_________________
"God and our archers made them stumble" Agincourt, 25 October 1415

annepan001 · Neepster Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 125 Location: Midmar

The only 'organic' honey I've ever seen so far has been from the opposite side of the world, eg Argentina, where I presume they must have vast acreages of organic crops, or of non-cultivated wild land which isn't subject to chemicals. Bees will forage up to 6 miles from their hive, so I don't know if it's possible to produce certified organic honey in the UK? Has anyone come across any? I remember doing a practical class on different types of honey and analysing the pollen types we found in it, and no matter what the name of the honey eg 'heather' or 'clover' there was a whole range of pollens from different plant sources. All you can do is put them somewhere where you think there's a good food source, and they'll decide for themselves!

But I'm keen to steer clear of chemicals if we do get bees, and to leave them some or even most of their honey to live off during the winter rather than giving them sugar solution or whatever it is that commercial producers provide. I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve tho, so everything to learn!

I did read that you shouldn't put their hives anywhere near a mobile phone mast, and should keep mobile phones turned off around them, since there was some research done that showed they got very disorientated with mobile phone signals and couldn't find their way to and from food sources.
_________________
Be the change you want to see in the world

JumbleJim · Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject:

Hi, I've tried the chemical route to control Varroa when I lived down south and I can't say it was very successful as resistance soon builds up. I did hear of talc being sprinkled onto the bees....apparently this increases the frequency of grooming and a high proportion of the mites are dislodged (but not all, and of course they are not killed). You then need to go through the floor debris with a sticky paper and mop up the dislodged mites. Incidentally Varroa mites can really move very quickly and can be transmitted on beekeeping clothes and equipment. Another well tried non-chemical technique for control of Varroa is to place drone comb into the brood box. When the queen lays drones in the drawn cells Varroa tend to migrate preferentially to the drone larvae. Once capped, the drone comb is removed and hung somewhere for the blue tits to peck and eat the drone larvae and the Varroa mites.

Of course there are other diseases which can also be controlled by non-chemical means (usually good husbandry and housekeeping), but occasionally drastic means are needed such as glacial acetic acid or fire!

I agree with you about not being able to guarantee "organic" bees...they are rather like cats....free spirits!

I see you were looking for good books on beekeeping, annepan.....I have an extensive library if you want to take a look sometime before you buy, since you are not that far away from me. Quite a few years ago I started a PhD on bees but then got distracted by more important things....doh!

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

http://www.biobees.com - THE website for natural beekeeping - run by Phil Chandler, who is one heck of a nice bloke, and cares a great deal about bees. I'm on the verge of building my first hives using his plans for "top bar hives".
A good read of his website and forum will fill you in on all the details - in simple terms, top bar hives duplicate natural conditions for bees, instead of imposing things on them - it's providing a very near approximation of a hollow log, and saying "you're the experts, get on with it", rather than imposing mankind's ideas by provision of artificially made combs etc. It's an ideal way for beginners to start, and the hives are cheap and easy to make.
I'll be recounting my experiences as I go, and will bung the results online somewhere for everyone to have a good laugh!

ps, one of the most widely used "natural" remedies for varroa is icing sugar!
_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk

Diana · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:20 am Post subject:

I wonder how the bees would fair in one of those in a Scottish winter
_________________
Tumuli Design
The Blog

Being looby keeps me sane

JumbleJim · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:50 am Post subject:

A good point Diana. How many wild bee colonies have I ever seen in Scotland compared with the south of England?.....none! The top bar hive is used in the tropics and mimics wild colonies, but although wild colonies must exist up here, I have never seen or heard any, certainly not in the Highlands or North East anyway. I once set up a similar colony down south and found it incredibly difficult to manage and wasteful of the bees time, energy and resources in having to draw comb from scratch. There is nothing wrong with using pre-formed foundation and doing this does not mean that you are not beekeeping "organically", whatever that may mean. My experience is that all beekeepers I have ever met in the UK are first and foremost environmentally conscious and responsible and only resort to chemical means of controlling disease if all other means fail. In fact I wonder if there is another group of "stock-breeders" who are more in tune with the environment than beekeepers?

Again, in my experience, and comparing beekeeping in the south with beekeeping up here, bees up here need as warm and cosy a hive and location as possible. I also suspect that the native black bee does better than any imported variety simply because its dark body colour means that it absorbs heat rapidly and gets going quickly, even on a slightly chilly Scottish spring morning. I once had a colony of pale bodied bees....they were brilliant at producing queens and drones, but of little use in producing honey. I think it also has to be bourne in mind that the world-wide experience of importing bees from non-indigenous sources has been fraught with dangers....this is one way that various diseases have been disseminated and also the major way that undesireable characteristics (such as aggression) have been inadvertently spread.

The above sounds very negative, Martin...I wasn't meaning it to be so, and I guess I am playing devil's advocate to an extent. I will certainly look forward to hearing about how you get on and like the idea of using icing sugar instead of talc....should work in exactly the same way and may even be recycled by the bees.

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

There are loads of forum members in the US of A, parts of which get even colder winters than you get in Scotland - one of the moderators is in Sweden. The recommended thickness of wood in a top bar hive means that they are probably better insulated than in a "conventional hive", and there are inbuilt boards that can be moved in either side of the "occupied" top bars in winter, and extra insulation added for the duration.......

_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk

JumbleJim · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:58 am Post subject:

Are they better insulated than a double skin hive?

Martin · Neepster Joined: 16 Sep 2007 Posts: 663

On the "comb" question - "conventional" beekeepers use pre-made comb that is placed in ready-made frames, it is of a set size (usually 5.6mm per cell), and does not allow a "free space" below the comb, which they always leave in the classic "hollow log" in the wild.
There is an increasing body of people who are of the opinion that the pre-made comb is actually the wrong size for optimum varroa control, and go to great lengths to "regress" bees over several generations to their more natural 4.9mm size........ Artificial comb is also full of whatever was picked up by the bees who made the beeswax and whatever chemicals the beekeepers used. It also limits the amount of drone brood cells.
In short, the theory is that we have been basing most beekeeping on a set of conclusions drawn 150 years ago, some of which are now being questioned.
Seems entirely logical to me - give them a nice artificial hollow log with some attachment points for comb, allow them to choose what sort and size of comb they wish to build (this behaviour is totally subjugated in a "conventional" hive), and generally to sit back and let these wonderful wild creatures do what comes naturally!

_________________
http://solarwind.org.uk