| Archive for NEEPS North East Eco-friendly People's Site |
| kimmie |
windymanWelcome to neeps...please tell us a little about yourself....your name on here...is it cause you are a windyman or intrested in wind power? 
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| Smooth Hound |
 
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| Townie |
Hi there and welcome to Neeps
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| windyman |
HelloI called myself "WindyMan" 'cos I do go on a bit about wind-power!You'll see from my picture that we've got a "Windsave" turbine - and I sometimes feel impelled to defend them - in a rural situation where you have a clear line of sight in the direction of the prevailing wind they can actually generate a useful amount of power (our peak last year was 13.8 kWh in one 24 hour period - average 2.15 kWh per day) - their main advantage is that they are cheap - so you can test if your site is suitable for a full-size wind turbine - the £1400 we spent (taking account of grant) on the Windsave is less than some firms would charge you for a wind survey! Looking forwards to chatting to a few people on "Neeps" - it looks like you've got some interesting discussions going. "WindyMan" |
| Martin |
As mentioned in another post, even with your VERY atypical experience, the best that it could ever do is just about pay for itself in 12 years of use (despite it's 10 year design life). I would also point out that they are "use it or lose it" - IF you have sufficient current drain at the time the wind blows, you will get to use the power generated, otherwise it toddles off in to the grid, unpaid for!
The meter on the front of the "control box" just shows how much power has passed through the box. I have costed "real" turbines, and for them to be worthwhile, they should pay for themselves in relatively short order, and give a "profit" for several years thereafter (otherwise the earth would be better off if the minerals had remained unmined, and the energy used to make the machine had stayed unused). As an example, there is an economy of scale - larger turbines pay back a lot quicker - we costed two 250KW turbines for a local factory, down here in the windless south - they would have paid back their cost completely within 5 years, and had a 25 year before major works life - that DOES make sense. I notice you make no mention of precisely where yours is mounted, and particularly about structural noise (one disgruntled owner reported that in a wind, his "stair rods rattled"). I did mention this point to a Windsave installer, and he honestly suggested that you switch them off at night to make sure you get some sleep............ 
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| windyman |
Thanks grumpyOur Windsave is mounted on the apex of the wall of our bedroom - and, yes, there is some structural noise, and when the inverter gets hots there's a blower that switches on and you can hear that. But, you quickly get used to the noise and sleep through it.And I repeat - in our circumstances with a conventional meter the meter does go backwards and you do get paid for your overspill at full retail price - our consumption as billed by Scottish Hydro has gone down by the amount on the front of Windsave box. There are lots of arguments about roof mounted wind turbines being too close to the turbulence caused by the presence of the house, but the whole idea is to save money - you don't have to pay for groundworks to raise the height of the mast as you already have a structure in place. So, what you lose in windflow you gain in cost savings. How about giving us some more costings on "proper" turbines - say you purchase a Proven 2.5kw - how much does it actually cost fully installed with groundworks and VAT - and have you got figures for a site with a year's worth of generation - how much electricity did it generate over 12 months - how much of that could be used locally and how much had to be sold back to the grid at what price - and what's the quoted local average wind speed? "WindyMan" |
| Martin |
"So, what you lose in windflow you gain in cost savings" -in short, you don't!
Have a look at this website, and the parts about roof-mounted turbines - the website design isn't "flash", but the bloke who runs it is probably THE foremost expert on wind energy in this country, and has written many of the text books http://scoraigwind.com/ In it, he shows that over his own roof he gets under 2 m/s (due mostly to turbulence), despite the NOABL database showing over 6 m/s, so as I've said, your experience is VERY atypical. In the US many turbine companies won't sell you anything shorter than a 60' mast, as they know full well that the "expense" of it will pay back remarkably quickly, due to much increased performance. The law may differ, in this part of the country, it is illegal to "drive the meter backwards", and you need a special agreement with the power supplier, and a pukka "export" meter. I don't deal direct with Proven, but have seen a 2.5kw fully installed for a whisker under £10k - as to performance, that's entirely site dependent. Windsave were originally marketed as urban animals - here's an interview with the MD of Windsave admitting that in the average urban area, you'd be lucky to see £10 worth of electricity in a year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVo0WvuX7K0 |
| windyman |
We're starting to agree on some thingsI agree that some of the photos of Windsave installations on your link are stupid - and that urban installations are generally daft.I can only answer for our experience with our installation. Why did we choose Windsave? 1) We were led to believe that we wouldn't be allowed planning permission for a separate mast as we are within sight of Aberdeen airport's main radar station. Martin - if you know of a turbine which will get planning permission next to a radar installation that would be useful information. 2) So we investigated only roof mounted models. We examined the Swift, which is reputed to be quiet, but the fully installed price came to over £10,000 and as we spend less than £1000 per year on electricity that didn't make sense as we are not in the business of selling power - we are just in the business of trying to be self sufficient-ish. 3) At £1400 fully installed (allowing for the grant paying part of the cost) the Windsave was a worthwhile experiment to see how much wind we got here. Would I recommend anyone else getting a Windsave? Only if you get an "A" rating on Windsave's site survey - we got a "B" because we're just below the summit of the local hill, so wind from the south-west rolling over the ridge line gains some turbulence - and there's the "telegraph pole" carrying our mains electric connection just a few yards away to the south-west, also causing some turbulence effect. A - means "Perfect" site B - means "Slight obstruction" C- is your average rural installation D - is a typical urban installation The one thing I do continue to disagree with Martin about is his continued denial of the truth that micro-generation installations are legally allowed to wind the meter backwards. Yes, it's illegal to wind an electric meter back if it's your intention to defraud the electric company. But in the specific situation of micro-generation you are legally allowed to feed up to 16 amps into the UK mains and if this winds your meter backwards the electric company are legally obliged to accept that you have sold them the measured quantity of electricity. I didn't originally believe that you could wind a meter backwards - I read a hint on a wind power forum that someone had seen their meter go backwards. And I read up about how electricity meters work - they have one winding that's in parallel with mains input effectively measuring voltage and another winding in series with the feed effectively measuring amps - these two windings work the electric motor which therefore effectively calculates volts times amps. This is the only fair way for them to work, if the electric company drops the voltage you pay less, if your consumption is mostly inductive or capacitive (so it's out of phase with the volts) then you only pay for the amps you use at the volts you use. And, if you drive the current backwards the motor goes backwards. I still didn't believe it, so I sat and watched our meter (sometimes in the rain) for the first few weeks after our installation and I saw the spinning wheel at the bottom of the meter (that's driven directly by the motor) go backwards. I still didn't believe that the numbers of the unit count would go backwards. But by checking the meter frequently I have seen it count backwards and after a long windy weekend away even the tens digit had gone back by 1. Being mechanical there is some slack in the mechanism, so the first half to one unit of spillage goes into winding the slack back - on a gusty day it just looks like the meter digits have stuck, but all your generation gets counted eventually as it takes just as much electricity to unwind the slack the other way. I hope this has made things a bit clearer. I'm still all in favour of big turbines if you can afford them - but there is a place for small turbines like the Windsave - if you have a hilltop position and you are prevented from installing a separate mast for whatever reason. "Windyman" |
| Martin |
I understand your keenness to "roll your own" power, and wouldn't want to blunt your keenness in any way, but on your own figures, your atypically "good" performance still means it won't actually ever pay for itself, let alone "turn a profit" - I spent many months glued to a 'phone, very gently telling people WHY such devices weren't recommended, particularly in urban areas - "wind microgeneration" really isn't a viable entity for 99.9% of the population.
I wish I could wave a magic wand and make them viable, but you're up against some very inviolable laws of physics. As to planners........ my comments are fairly unprintable on the subject - if you have a really good windy site, what you really need is a turbine atop a 60 or 100' tower to really reap the benefits, but the odds of swinging planning consent are minimal. As to the "backward meter" thing, this is what I have been told by the likes of EDF -and that the only "legal" way is to have a pukka export meter - as I said, it may be different in Scotland. If you have the slightest doubt of my utter belief that roof-mounted turbines are "trouble" in the vast majority of cases, when the hullabaloo was going on about Windsaves being offered in B&Q, we were approached by a marketing company that wanted to take advantage of the market - at the time we were agents for a small turbine that some people have been daft enough to roof mount - we were offered a "name your own price" initial order for 500 - supply and erect........ we turned them down flat, as we knew we'd spend the next few years placating irate clients, and doubtless removing the blessed things from their cornflakes into which they'd plummetted along with a chunk of gable end or chimney pot......... I don't regret that decision one jot. I'm passionate about wind, I love it to pieces, and on the right site, with the correct equipment it can be superb, but unfortunately, it really won't be truly "green" in almost all domestic circumstances (unless you can swing the planning consent for that tall tower) As a general rule - roof mounted chocolate teapot - not with the proverbial ten-foot bargepole! 
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| peppercat |
s partner of "windy man" we still like ours and it never fails to raise a comment from visitors and tradespeople thus bringing windpower to the attention of some who might otherwise be "NIMBYs" if a wind farm was suggested near them. I personally believe small community wind farms are the way to go but we need planning authorities to wake up and put generation of energy ahead of total wastage of it as in increased airtraffic and their b**** radars! |