Sourcing bee keeping paraphernalia locally

greenhorn · Sourcing bee keeping paraphernalia locally

Hi,

I am a newbie on the bee front and was wondering if anyone knew of a good source locally to get, hives, bees, etc.

Thanks in advance for any info.

StuP

There're a few not *too* far away...

Highland Bee Supplies, Crask, Farr, Inverness, IV2 6XF (Tel: 01808 521311)

Beeware, John Taylor, Milltimber, Inver, By Dunkeld, Perthshire, PH8 0JR (Tel. 01350 727587)

Thornes (closest one is near Dundee) http://www.thorne.co.uk/shops.htm

Thorne's local agent: AberdeenBeeSupplies@hotmail.com

StuP

Also, check out http://www.aberdeenbeekeepers.com/ for the local beekeepers association

...or if you're in Moray http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/

The Edinburgh & Midlothian Beekeepers website http://www.edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/ also has an online forum that can be useful.

Best thing I can recommend if you're a novice is to join your local association and attend their classes. You'll also get good advice about which equipment is most appropriate to local conditions and some associations can get good discounts on buying equipment too.

Enjoy!

kimmie

thanks for those tips stuP....i know there are a fair few people on here that will be interested in these links.....my OH being one

Smooth Hound

yes i think i may get a beehive one day

Lord_Azrael

I'm tempted...especially as the poor little blighters are declining so much lately.
I've got a friend who's taking me along to one of their meetings at some point this year to 'have a go'.

greenhorn

Thanks that is a great help.

bracken · bee stuff

The Dundee Thornes is a good day out - get there early as the old hands just about camp out there! Although I've been to the one in Lincolnshire and that really was the place to bee....!
They use these sale days to sell off many 'seconds' supers, floors, brood chambers, frames as well as all the normal paraphenalia. You would be able to by all the component parts of a hive, all of the associated equipment (suits, hive tools, smokers etc) and books etc.
Perhaps if a few folk were interested a group of Neeps could go and share the cost of fuel?

annepan001

Does anyone know of any beekeepers locally who keep bees organically?

I spoke to the beekeepers association down at the Royal Highland Show last summer, and they looked a bit sceptical when I asked that question.

I don't want to sign up with a group that turns to chemicals as a first resource. But what are the alternatives if the bees get mites / disease etc ??

Diana

There was supposed to be a guy setting up organic bees at Bridge of Muchalls near Stonehaven, but not heard any more about that. For an organic honey you'd need to be able to guarantee the bees were only foraging certified organic crops etc.

As to not using chemicals, there are alternatives - like oxalic and formic acid (both of which I believe are allowed in an organic system, but both have undesirable traits).

Having looked into it myself, I think the best way forward is:
a) Hygiene - keep the equipment clean (including the end of season hive clean) and the area around the hive clear.
b) Site - give the bees as perfect conditions as you can
c) Strain of bee - go for a Russian or Czech breed of bee. They are currently being researched as they show a much improved resistance to veroa. If you can keep that at bay the bees are less stressed and stronger, and less likely to surcome to disease

Any bee keeping club will turn to chemicals as a first resource - that's the way it's developed I'm afraid. If you arm yourself with as much info as pos about how you'd tackle P&Ds, local beekeeping clubs are still the way to go as the experience and advice is invaluable.

At the end of the day if your bees get P&Ds you need to sort it quick or you'll loose the bees. I'm not saying that means you have to turn to chemicals, but you do need to have the right plan of action in place before problems arise. IMO, prevention is better than cure, but swift reaction to a problem can often prevent it developing into something worse.

All just my opinion though

annepan001

Thanks Diana. I wonder if that was Paul van Midden at lembas, who's at Bridge of Muchalls?

I'm not that bothered about getting honey from the bees (tho I'm sure that will change if I keep them!

) ... but I'm really keen to have loads of happy healthy honey bees on the farm, pollinating away, and getting the benefit of all the red clover we grow. There's good heather on Barmekin hill a couple of fields away too.

And we've planted loads of trees on the farm, so once they start flowering there's another food source for the bees ... now all I need to do is to arm myself with information and take the plunge!

Can you recommend any good books on the subject? I know there are lots around, but where to start?

Lord_Azrael

I'm not sure you could really guarantee having Organic bees. I suppose unless you can 100% guarantee that they only fly to areas of land that are organically managed then there is the probability that they will be in contact with non-organic fields?
I know what you mean though, I try to garden organically, but I'm in a farm cottage and our farmer, when he goes around with the tractor and fertiliser, ends up flinging some across into my garden, so I could never actually claim to be organic.

annepan001

The only 'organic' honey I've ever seen so far has been from the opposite side of the world, eg Argentina, where I presume they must have vast acreages of organic crops, or of non-cultivated wild land which isn't subject to chemicals. Bees will forage up to 6 miles from their hive, so I don't know if it's possible to produce certified organic honey in the UK? Has anyone come across any? I remember doing a practical class on different types of honey and analysing the pollen types we found in it, and no matter what the name of the honey eg 'heather' or 'clover' there was a whole range of pollens from different plant sources. All you can do is put them somewhere where you think there's a good food source, and they'll decide for themselves!

But I'm keen to steer clear of chemicals if we do get bees, and to leave them some or even most of their honey to live off during the winter rather than giving them sugar solution or whatever it is that commercial producers provide. I'm at the very bottom of the learning curve tho, so everything to learn!

I did read that you shouldn't put their hives anywhere near a mobile phone mast, and should keep mobile phones turned off around them, since there was some research done that showed they got very disorientated with mobile phone signals and couldn't find their way to and from food sources.

JumbleJim

Hi, I've tried the chemical route to control Varroa when I lived down south and I can't say it was very successful as resistance soon builds up. I did hear of talc being sprinkled onto the bees....apparently this increases the frequency of grooming and a high proportion of the mites are dislodged (but not all, and of course they are not killed). You then need to go through the floor debris with a sticky paper and mop up the dislodged mites. Incidentally Varroa mites can really move very quickly and can be transmitted on beekeeping clothes and equipment. Another well tried non-chemical technique for control of Varroa is to place drone comb into the brood box. When the queen lays drones in the drawn cells Varroa tend to migrate preferentially to the drone larvae. Once capped, the drone comb is removed and hung somewhere for the blue tits to peck and eat the drone larvae and the Varroa mites.

Of course there are other diseases which can also be controlled by non-chemical means (usually good husbandry and housekeeping), but occasionally drastic means are needed such as glacial acetic acid or fire!

I agree with you about not being able to guarantee "organic" bees...they are rather like cats....free spirits!

I see you were looking for good books on beekeeping, annepan.....I have an extensive library if you want to take a look sometime before you buy, since you are not that far away from me. Quite a few years ago I started a PhD on bees but then got distracted by more important things....doh!

Martin

http://www.biobees.com - THE website for natural beekeeping - run by Phil Chandler, who is one heck of a nice bloke, and cares a great deal about bees. I'm on the verge of building my first hives using his plans for "top bar hives".
A good read of his website and forum will fill you in on all the details - in simple terms, top bar hives duplicate natural conditions for bees, instead of imposing things on them - it's providing a very near approximation of a hollow log, and saying "you're the experts, get on with it", rather than imposing mankind's ideas by provision of artificially made combs etc. It's an ideal way for beginners to start, and the hives are cheap and easy to make.
I'll be recounting my experiences as I go, and will bung the results online somewhere for everyone to have a good laugh!

ps, one of the most widely used "natural" remedies for varroa is icing sugar!

Diana

I wonder how the bees would fair in one of those in a Scottish winter

JumbleJim

A good point Diana. How many wild bee colonies have I ever seen in Scotland compared with the south of England?.....none! The top bar hive is used in the tropics and mimics wild colonies, but although wild colonies must exist up here, I have never seen or heard any, certainly not in the Highlands or North East anyway. I once set up a similar colony down south and found it incredibly difficult to manage and wasteful of the bees time, energy and resources in having to draw comb from scratch. There is nothing wrong with using pre-formed foundation and doing this does not mean that you are not beekeeping "organically", whatever that may mean. My experience is that all beekeepers I have ever met in the UK are first and foremost environmentally conscious and responsible and only resort to chemical means of controlling disease if all other means fail. In fact I wonder if there is another group of "stock-breeders" who are more in tune with the environment than beekeepers?

Again, in my experience, and comparing beekeeping in the south with beekeeping up here, bees up here need as warm and cosy a hive and location as possible. I also suspect that the native black bee does better than any imported variety simply because its dark body colour means that it absorbs heat rapidly and gets going quickly, even on a slightly chilly Scottish spring morning. I once had a colony of pale bodied bees....they were brilliant at producing queens and drones, but of little use in producing honey. I think it also has to be bourne in mind that the world-wide experience of importing bees from non-indigenous sources has been fraught with dangers....this is one way that various diseases have been disseminated and also the major way that undesireable characteristics (such as aggression) have been inadvertently spread.

The above sounds very negative, Martin...I wasn't meaning it to be so, and I guess I am playing devil's advocate to an extent. I will certainly look forward to hearing about how you get on and like the idea of using icing sugar instead of talc....should work in exactly the same way and may even be recycled by the bees.

Martin

There are loads of forum members in the US of A, parts of which get even colder winters than you get in Scotland - one of the moderators is in Sweden. The recommended thickness of wood in a top bar hive means that they are probably better insulated than in a "conventional hive", and there are inbuilt boards that can be moved in either side of the "occupied" top bars in winter, and extra insulation added for the duration.......

JumbleJim

Are they better insulated than a double skin hive?

Martin

On the "comb" question - "conventional" beekeepers use pre-made comb that is placed in ready-made frames, it is of a set size (usually 5.6mm per cell), and does not allow a "free space" below the comb, which they always leave in the classic "hollow log" in the wild.
There is an increasing body of people who are of the opinion that the pre-made comb is actually the wrong size for optimum varroa control, and go to great lengths to "regress" bees over several generations to their more natural 4.9mm size........ Artificial comb is also full of whatever was picked up by the bees who made the beeswax and whatever chemicals the beekeepers used. It also limits the amount of drone brood cells.
In short, the theory is that we have been basing most beekeeping on a set of conclusions drawn 150 years ago, some of which are now being questioned.
Seems entirely logical to me - give them a nice artificial hollow log with some attachment points for comb, allow them to choose what sort and size of comb they wish to build (this behaviour is totally subjugated in a "conventional" hive), and generally to sit back and let these wonderful wild creatures do what comes naturally!

wildgarlic

A friend who used to live in Lumsden had bees in her outbuilding - they took up residence there rather than being introduced. Is this what you mean by wild?

Martin

Better insulated than a double-skin hive? - I think that would be arguable, according to what design and materials were used in both

All I know on the "cold winter" front is that top bar hives are used widely with no problems everywhere from Africa to Northern Europe (Germany, Sweden etc) -and a great many are used the States - keeping the bees warm enough would not appear to be a major issue

Diana

Martin

Swarming is entirely natural behaviour that can to some extent be controlled by the way you manage the hives. I suspect that almost all "wild bees" are from "escaped" swarms these days, and they can take up residence in buildings, hollow trees etc., where they "just get on with it", building their own combs.

JumbleJim

Yes, but it doesn't seem to happen as readily up here compared with warmer climes. I also wonder about the comparison of winters....it is often said that our winters are cold and wet, with frequently changing weather...in continental Europe and in the States, the cold is different...prolonged and "dry" (in the sense of a lower relative humidity). High humidity and cold coupled with one day cold next relatively warm, etc, is a completely different kettle of fish.

Martin said:

Martin

I'm not an expert by any manner of means, my understanding is that if left to their own devices, and allowed to "do it their way", they are far less stressed, healthier, and better able to cope with things like varroa - certainly it can be argued that letting them build their own combs is "wasteful" - on the other hand, top bar hives are not designed for the economic expediency of the beekeeper, but to allow the bees as natural a life as possible (it is generally considered good practice to leave as much honey as they need for their needs through the winter, rather than substituting entirely inferior sugar)

If there is a "theory" it is that the bad practices of the last 150 years are all coming together, and playing a part in the problems that bees are having at the moment - pre-made, insecticide-riddled comb of an unnatural size and design, suppression of natural drives (like building drone comb), feeding an inferior honey substitute etc - top-bar beekeeping is not designed for our convenience, but the bees (for a change......)
Having kept laying hens on a commercial scale, I think a very good analogy would be that "conventional" beekeeping is like battery hens, "natural" beekeeping is just that - the equivalent of "free range" - my experience suggesting that if you give the chickens what they need, they stay naturally healthy and productive...........
Last but not least, although there is no way you can control what your bees land on and bring back to the hive, commercially produced wax combs can, and often do contain all sorts of contaminants that we are best without
(including organophosphate residues).

Martin

another indication of the "difference" is the matter of "smoke" - noone (except "barefoot beekeepers") questions the use of it in "subduing" bees......
what it actually does is says to the poor creatures that their home is on fire, so they stuff themselves with honey in preparation for mass exodus.......
Natural beekeepers have found that a fine water spray is just as effective, causes far less disruption, and normal hive activity is much less affected, and all activity resumes far faster after it's use - which is eminently sensible - at the risk of anthropomorphisation, it's a lot less stressful if someone yells "it's raining" than "FIRE"

JumbleJim

I have found that smoking is more effective if you use very little corrugated cardboard to get things going and then use plenty of dried grass...it seems to produce a more calming smoke than that from the commercially available cardboard smoker cartridges. I have to say that I find the idea of using a fine water spray intriguing and will give this a go....whenever I have handled bees in moist conditions they have seemed to be less than happy at getting wet

I agree about leaving honey on over winter. I have used this technique for the last two winters and have had no problems whilst other nearby beekeepers have lost their colonies.

As with many things like this, a real problem is that often beekeepers change several things at the same time in relation to their practices. All this achieves is confusion as to exactly what altered condition has really improved life for the bees.

Incidentally, I do feel that some of your descriptions of what goes on in a modern beehive is perhaps a little too dramatic.....let's keep things in perspective, beekeeping is still a very natural process, even as modified over the last 100 years. Honey, especially that produced in the UK, is some of the finest, most naturally pure food possible....any contaminants are there in such miniscule amounts, and analysis of British honey shows that it has very little in the way of contaminants. I'm not sure you could say that of honey shipped in from elsewhere.

What I am in favour of is beekeeping on a small scale.....as such the beekeeper and the bees are bound to have a much closer relationship and the beekeeper can respond much more readily to the needs of the bees. I'm not in favour of leaving them to their own devices since this can lead to all sorts of problems, and, more importantly, I like to see what my bees are doing, they are such fascinating animals.

Martin

Most imported honey is indeed filthy in comparison to UK honey, but it doesn't mean that UK beekeeping is beyond reproach.
As for "babies and bathwater", top bar hives (and Warre hives and their variants) are by no manner of means a new idea, but are a result of many years of continuous development - there are a lot of very good brains who have, and continue to do really good work in the "natural beekeeping" field.
Phil Chandler, for instance has "worked with Brother Adam at Buckfast" on his beekeeping cv.
Certainly "natural beekeeping" can be a shock to the system to those used to "conventional" methods - it questions so many "orthodoxies" seemingly all at once, but to my mind "feels" far more natural and "right". I came to beekeeping as one of those people who wanted to do their bit toward saving a valuable part of our ecosystem - some honey is a pleasant by-product, but certainly not my main motivation.
If you're interested in perhaps restarting beekeeping you'd be made very welcome on their forum, and you'd get chapter and verse from experts from all round the globe - even if you want to use "conventional" hives - they're a very broad church!

JumbleJim

Thanks Martin, I will certainly take a look....although I tend to think that you find a technique and set of practices that work for you and then stick to it until something goes wrong (old dog...new tricks

) but I'm always interested in new/old ideas and look forward to hearing how you get on (hopefully with some photographs too). As I said, one of the main objects I have is just looking at the bees and observing their behaviour so I don't mind lifting the lids on my hives and disturbing them.....and I don't think they mind either. Mind you, I once was given a colony that hadn't been touched for seven years...."there ye'are boy, if you care to come and get them, they're yours"......they had the instincts of killer bees and I needed triple layers of clothing to stop the stings hitting home (and always in the most sensitive areas

).

bracken · bees

I wonder if many problems associated with bees - in particular varroah mites but not excluding all the other 'notifiable diseases' eg American and European foul brood - is due to the importation of foreign bees which were introduced many years ago to 'improve' our native black bee?
Once mated with our native bees the 'good' outweighed the 'bad' for many years but perhaps now weaknesses are being shown up.
I remember the Italian bee being heralded as the next best thing since sliced bread when it was introduced - but it's introduction to the colder climes of the UK proved it to be a lazy bee in the colder weather - only producing the large amounts of honey in very good years. Unfortunately, these days, the black bee is almost extinct and 'mongrel' bees are now the norm.
I've read a lot about bee houses which can be anything from a converted garden shed to a converted loft in a farm building which offer the bees protection from wind, rain and damp - I've seen the converted farm building loft at a honey farm and was very impressed!!!
I agree that imported honey is not to be recommended - even the famous branded honey you see in the supermarkets is a blend of imports from many countries in the world. The condition it arrives in the factory need to be seen to believed! Once in the factory it is processed at abnormally high temperatures and screened to remove hive debris (including pollen). Support your local beekeeper whenever possible.

Martin

I'm on the verge of getting the wood to start hive building, so will give a link to my progress.
Here's one of the Biobees forum moderator's hives, built from scrap pallet wood http://www.biobees.com/forum/ptopic390.html - that's another point - it brings beekeeping within the reach of far more people, you need hardly any equipment

Martin

here's some more "original thinking"
http://www.taylorsgardenbuildings.co.uk/bee_house_beehives.html

JumbleJim

Here, here, Bracken...well said about supporting local produce. Was the beehouse in a loft fairly local to the North East? Sounds interesting, although I had a friend in Mid Wales who had this arrangement....he was involved in bee breeding and had access to all his hives from inside a large stone building which was also his bee laboratory.

From what I remember about the beginning of Varroa in the UK, it came in near to Torquay in Devon and had been reputedly brought in from France by a local beekeeper who had personally shipped in a nucleus from there. I remember we all became very anxious, but the inevitable eventually came. I suspect that the greater frequency of swarming may have contributed to its rapid spread down south compared with further north. There were also many more wild/feral colonies too.

Martin

as an aside to this, of note to anyone just consuming the stuff - you should NEVER leave a used an unwashed honey jar outdoors or in rubbish where bees can get at it - nearly all imported honey carries diseases, which can be picked up by native bees from contact with the jars

I think you'll find the "black bees" are virtually extinct, having been all but wiped out by "Isle of Wight disease" back in the 1920's - which is why other bees were imported to replace them - it wasn't a "choice" thing, but a matter of necessity.

JumbleJim

Martin said:

Martin

Keep forgetting most of you lot are up in the frozen wastes of the North!

A swift read-up tells me that it is a common misconception amongst us southerners......
http://www.wiki-north-east.co.uk/topics/black-bee
http://www.wiki-north-east.co.uk/article.aspx?id=1502394
http://www.wiki-north-east.co.uk/article.aspx?id=1287781

JumbleJim

Frozen wastes indeed Martin

this winter the first snow flurries came in September and I can still see quite a lot of snow on the hill tops surrounding me......and born and bred locals laughingly tell me this was a mild year

We're not far from the Lecht ski area, and I am told that in days gone by the road to the Lecht was kept open by dynamite

I sometimes wonder how anything flourishes....but it does....bees as well

My little beauties are flying even now in a strong westerly wind from over the Cairngorms and an outside temperature of 9 Celsius (so with wind chill it feels nearer zero)....too cold for me to be out 'though...brrr!

Sourcing bee keeping paraphernalia locally

bee stuff

bees