| Archive for NEEPS North East Eco-friendly People's Site |
| wildgarlic |
Scots children may be first in line for swine flu vaccine
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| annepan001 |
I, for one, will not be touching the flu vaccine with a bargepole.
There is too much evidence available that this is a manufactured outbreak, and too little evidence that a 'vaccine' which has been rushed into production is going to be of any use, and even less that it will be safe. Did you know, for example, that Baxter International shipped 72 kg of deadly LIVE bird flu designed to infect humans to several European countries, labelled as seasonal flu vaccine in February this year? An Austrian journalist, Jane Burgermeister, has filed charges against Baxter for intentionally creating a weaponised flu 'vaccine', and has also filed charges against the WHO, the Centre for Disease Control, and others in positions of authority for the deliberate manufacture and release of H1N1, followed by the creation and use of vaccines designed to kill or harm the recipients? For the first time in living history the WHO is now in a position of greater power than our own governments - when WHO rushed headlong into declaring Pandemic level 6, despite the fact that a tiny percentage of people became seriously ill, and an even tinier percentage died - almost all from underlying health problems - we now face a situation where if the WHO demands it, our governments have to implement MANDATORY vaccinations for whichever parts of the population they decree. This whole situation makes me extremely uneasy! At best I fear that this is a money-making scam for the pharmaceutical companies - artificially inflate the seriousness of the flu, cause a panic, and reap the rewards as people flock to get the tamiflu/ relenza / vaccine. At worst, there are many who fear that we're on the brink of a major disaster brought on by a small group of unscrupulous people intent on using so-called vaccines to kill off selected portions of the population. The WHO's own website reports that adjuvants will be used to make the vaccines ' more effective'. Adjuvants in vaccines are extremely dangerous - for example, squalene and its derivatives are known to cause auto-immune diseases such as the so-called "Gulf War Syndrome". At last, after weeks of propaganda from the mainstream media, one or two enlightened journalists are starting to question whether it's wise to rush to mass medicate the population with drugs known to have extremely severe side effects, and vaccines which at best can have only been 'tested' for safety for a matter of a week or two: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/new...urologists-25-deaths-America.html Before you let anyone vaccinate your family, do the research, and demand guarantees that no harm will befall you. I'll post some links to get you started. |
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| annepan001 |
Some quotes from medics on the problems with mass immunisation/ vaccination:
"Crib death" was so infrequent in the pre-vaccination era that it was not even mentioned in the statistics, but it started to climb in the 1950s with the spread of mass vaccination against diseases of childhood. Harris L. Coulter, PhD. "These data show that DPT vaccination may be a generally unrecognised major cause of sudden infant and early childhood death, and that the risks of immunisation may outweigh its potential benefits. A need for re-evaluation and possible modification of current vaccination procedures is indicated by this study." William C. Torch, M.D., Director of Child Neurology, Department of Paediatrics, University of Nevada School of Medicine Vaccination is not necessary, not useful, does not protect. There are twice as many casualties from vaccination as from AIDS. Dr. med. Gerhard Buchwald, West Germany, specialist of internal diseases and participant in about 150 trials of vaccination victims. Dr. Michael Odent has written a letter in the JAMA (1994) where his figures show a five times higher rate of asthma in pertussis immunised children compared to non-immunised children. He is also quoted in the International Vaccination Newsletter (Sept. 1994): "Immunised children have more ear infections and spend more days in hospital." "The public is surely entitled to convincing proof, beyond all reasonable doubt, that artificial immunisation is in fact a safe and effective procedure, in no way injurious to health, and that the threat of the corresponding natural diseases remain sufficiently clear and urgent to warrant mass inoculation of everyone, even against their will if necessary. Unfortunately, such proof has never been given." Richard Moskowitz, M.D., Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy, March 1983 (76:7) "Vaccination is expensive and represents a cost of one billion dollars annually. It therefore benefits the industry; most notably, the multinational manufacturers. One sells the vaccines. The other then provides the $%^&nal of medications to respond to the numerous complications that follow. Their profits increase while our expenses go through the roof. To the point where we have simply had it up to here and are ready to accept the unacceptable, such as socialised medicine in the United States, for example."-- Dr Lanctot MD Delay of DPT immunisation until 2 years of age in Japan has resulted in a dramatic decline in adverse side effects. In the period of 1970-1974, when DPT vaccination was begun at 3 to 5 months of age, the Japanese national compensation system paid out claims for 57 permanent severe damage vaccine cases, and 37 deaths. During the ensuing six year period 1975-1980, when DPT injections were delayed to 24 months of age, severe reactions from the vaccine were reduced to a total of eight with three deaths. This represents an 85 to 90 percent reduction in severe cases of damage and death." Raymond Obomsawin, M.D. "Autism may be a disorder linked to the disruption of the G-alpha protein, affecting retinoid receptors in the brain. A study of sixty autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by inserting a G-alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the D.P.T. vaccine, into genetically at-risk children." Mary N. Megson, M.D. "This report describes six mothers who received live virus vaccines and one who received a Hepatitis B vaccine during pregnancy after having received an MMR booster five months prior to conception. All the children who resulted from these pregnancies have had developmental problems, six out seven (85%) were diagnosed with autism, and the seventh seems to exhibit symptoms often associated with autistic spectrum disorders." F Yazbak MD "Every day new parents are ringing us. They all have the same tragic story. Healthy baby, child, teenager, usually a boy, given the DPT (diphtheria, pertussis and tet$%^&) or DT (diphtheria and tet$%^&), MMR or MMR booster followed by a sudden fall or slow, but steady decline into autism or other spectrums disorder." - The Hope Project (Ireland) "There is no evidence whatsoever of the ability of vaccines to prevent any diseases. To the contrary, there is a great wealth of evidence that they cause serious side effects. Dr. Viera Scheibner "My data proves that the studies used to support immunisation are so flawed that it is impossible to say if immunisation provides a net benefit to anyone or to society in general. This question can only be determined by proper studies which have never been performed. The flaw of previous studies is that there was no long term follow up and chronic toxicity was not looked at. The American Society of Microbiology has promoted my research...and thus acknowledges the need for proper studies." John B. Classen, M.D., M.B.A. "The medical authorities keep lying. Vaccination has been a disaster on the immune system. It actually causes a lot of illnesses. We are changing our genetic code through vaccination." Guylaine Lanctot M.D. Canadian author of the best-seller 'Medical Mafia'. Jonas Salk, inventor of the IPV, testified before a Senate subcommittee that nearly all polio outbreaks since 1961 were caused by the oral polio vaccine. "The evidence for indicting immunisations for SIDS (sudden infant death syndrome) is circumstantial, but compelling. However, the keepers of the keys to medical-research funds are not interested in researching this very important lead to the cause of an ongoing, and possibly preventable, tragedy. Anything that implies that immunisations are not the greatest medical advance in the history of public health is ignored or ridiculed. Can you imagine the economic and political import of discovering that immunisations are killing thousands of babies?" Dr William C. Douglass, M.D. (Honored twice as America's 'Doctor of the Year') |
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| annepan001 |
Squalene, vaccine adjuvants, and Gulf War Syndrome:Squalene, vaccine adjuvants, and Gulf War Syndrome: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/08/04/Squalene-The-Swine-Flu-Vaccines-Dirty-Little-Secret-Exposed.aspxSome interesting graphs here which appear to show that vaccinations were introduced when most diseases were well on the way out due to improved sanitation/ living standards anyway: http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html |
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| Smooth Hound |
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| annepan001 |
For anyone who doubts that people in very powerful positions would contemplate forced population reduction, see below for evidence, and a particularly brutal collection of direct quotes from the likes of Henry Kissinger, Rockefeller & even Prince Philip.
More information available here, as posted on the 7th August: http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/will-there-be-depopulation-by-inoculation-asks-david-hodges/ "Will there be depopulation by inoculation, asks David Hodges August 7, 2009 by JB Depopulation by Inoculation (Part 1): Motive and Intent In September of 2007, I interviewed Dr. Lorraine Day, the former Orthopedic Chief of Staff at San Francisco General Hospital and the wife of retired Congressman Bill Dannemeyer, about the evils of the present medical system. The initial portion of the interview went as expected and was filled with scores of examples of pharmaceutical and medical insurance company greed and abuse which has resulted in the deaths of untold numbers of patients. Then Dr. Day dropped a bombshell when, at the conclusion of the interview, she unabashedly stated that the global elite want to murder 95% of the population. I was shocked and my personal reaction, at the time, was to reject her statement as a gross exaggeration. In April of 2009, I interviewed Dr. Rebecca Carley and medical researcher and author, Patrick Jordan, at the very beginning of the swine flu outbreak and both guests made very similar claims with regard to an intentional depopulation program by the global elite. In this particular instance, Dr. Carley and Mr. Jordan pointed to the, as of yet, undeveloped H1N1 flu vaccine from which they claimed would be the primary catalyst in depopulating world in a classic case of the cure being far worse than the disease. For the past four months, I have researched the following question: Is there a deliberate attempt on the part of the global elite to eliminate a substantial portion of humanity through the use of a bioengineered swine flu virus and its more deadly accompanying vaccine? As with any murder plot, whether it be a single homicide, or mass genocide, the deadly plot contains the same essential elements: (1) motive, (2) intent, (3) means, and, (4) opportunity. In part one of this series, both motive and intent are examined by presenting the words of the globalists themselves. An Historical Perspective on Deliberate Depopulation Through my research, I have discovered that the notion of creating and implementing an intentional and systematic depopulation scheme was not a new phenomenon. The global elite have long advocated for draconian population reductions over the past several centuries. For example, Thomas Malthus argued that the population growth, by the poor, inevitably outstrips food production and leads to a massive retaliation from Mother Nature (i.e., Malthusian Controls). His infamous “Malthusian Controls” which are taught to every first year sociology student, has become a cornerstone belief for many modern day globalists who advocate population control by any means necessary. This radical and dangerous idea promotes the unproven notion that the poor deserve to die because there are too many of them for the Earth to adequately support. Malthus believed that higher wages and welfare should be withheld from the great unwashed because he believed that these two factors would allow the poor to survive and exponentially breed, thus compounding the overpopulation problem. Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, enthusiastically promoted the Malthusian philosophy in the United States as she stated “The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it.” Perhaps these were merely the musings of two twisted individuals which do not represent any type of central philosophical belief. Unfortunately the theories of Malthus, Sanger and other population control advocates did not die with them. As I discovered, this is a reoccurring theme contained within the personal words of several dozen global leaders. Depopulation? Several Globalists In Their Own Words Is there motive and intent that can be gleaned from the words of several global leaders? Perhaps, the best way to answer this question is to look for consistent patterns in the quotes of several global leaders, themselves. “Society has no business to permit degenerates to reproduce their kind” Theodore Roosevelt “Malthus has been vindicated; reality is finally catching up with Malthus. The Third World is overpopulated, it’s an economic mess, and there’s no way they could get out of it with this fast-growing population. Our philosophy is: back to the village.” Dr. Arne Schiotz, World Wildlife Fund Director of Conservation, stated such, ironically, in 1984: “A total world population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.” Ted Turner, in an interview with Audubon magazine “There is a single theme behind all our work–we must reduce population levels. Either governments do it our way, through nice clean methods, or they will get the kinds of mess that we have in El Salvador, or in Iran or in Beirut. Population is a political problem. Once population is out of control, it requires authoritarian government, even fascism, to reduce it….” “Our program in El Salvador didn’t work. The infrastructure was not there to support it. There were just too goddamned many people…. To really reduce population, quickly, you have to pull all the males into the fighting and you have to kill significant numbers of fertile age females….” The quickest way to reduce population is through famine, like in Africa, or through disease like the Black Death…. Thomas Ferguson, State Department Office of Population Affairs “In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill…. But in designating them as the enemy, we fall into the trap of mistaking symptoms for causes. All these dangers are caused by human intervention and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy, then, is humanity itself.” Alexander King, Bertrand Schneider – Founder and Secretary, respectively, The Club of Rome, The First Global Revolution, pgs 104-105, 1991 A cancer is an uncontrolled multiplication of cells; the population explosion is an uncontrolled multiplication of people…. We must shift our efforts from the treatment of the symptoms to the cutting out of the cancer. The operation will demand many apparently brutal and heartless decisions. Stanford Professor ” Paul Ehrlich in The Population Bomb “In order to stabilize world population, we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it is just as bad not to say it.” J. Cousteau, 1991 explorer and UNESCO courier I believe that human overpopulation is the fundamental problem on Earth Today” and, “We humans have become a disease, the Humanpox.” Dave Foreman, Sierra Club and co founder of Earth First! “We must speak more clearly about sexuality, contraception, about abortion, about values that control population, because the ecological crisis, in short, is the population crisis. Cut the population by 90% and there aren’t enough people left to do a great deal of ecological damage.” Mikhail Gorbachev “Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government.” Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991 The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer. Dr. Henry Kissinger New York Times, Oct. 28, 1973 Depopulation should be the highest priority of foreign policy towards the third world, because the US economy will require large and increasing amounts of minerals from abroad, especially from less developed countries”. Dr. Henry Kissinger “Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac,” and “The elderly are useless eaters” Dr. Henry Kissinger “World population needs to be decreased by 50%” Dr. Henry Kissinger “We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order.” David Rockefeller “War and famine would not do. Instead, disease offered the most efficient and fastest way to kill the billions that must soon die if the population crisis is to be solved. AIDS is not an efficient killer because it is too slow. My favorite candidate for eliminating 90 percent of the world’s population is airborne Ebola (Ebola Reston), because it is both highly lethal and it kills in days, instead of years. “We’ve got airborne diseases with 90 percent mortality in humans. Killing humans. Think about that. “You know, the bird flu’s good, too. For everyone who survives, he will have to bury nine” Dr. Eric Pianka University of Texas evolutionary ecologist and lizard expert, showed solutions for reducing the world’s population to an audience on population control “No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation.” David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations “The present vast overpopulation, now far beyond the world carrying capacity, cannot be answered by future reductions in the birth rate due to contraception, sterilization and abortion, but must be met in the present by the reduction of numbers presently existing. This must be done by whatever means necessary.” Initiative for the United Nations ECO-92 EARTH CHARTER “In South America, the government of Peru goes door to door pressuring women to be sterilized and they are funded by American tax dollars to do this.” Mark Earley in The Wrong Kind of Party Christian Post 10/27 2008 Women in the Netherlands who are deemed by the state to be unfit mothers should be sentenced to take contraception for a prescribed period of two years.” Marjo Van Dijken (author of the bill in the Netherlands) in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/nov/04/humanrights-women “Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature” Anonymously commissioned Georgia Guidestones “If I were reincarnated I would wish to be returned to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.” Prince Phillip, Queen Elizabeth’s husband, Duke of Edinburgh, leader of the World Wildlife Fund Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing.” David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes “Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.” Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg “The Planetary Regime might be given responsibility for determining the optimum population for the world and for each region and for arbitrating various countries’ shares within their regional limits. Control of population size might remain the responsibility of each government, but the Regime would have some power to enforce the agreed limits.” Obama’s science czar John P. Holdren: From a book he helped write ‘Ecoscience’ “The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control…. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.” Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviet Union There can be little doubt that depopulation is a consistent theme of global leaders and the idea has been around for a very long time. Preaching drastic population reduction may be one thing, but when the actions match the stated intent, all of us would be fools to not pay close attention and act accordingly as circumstances warrant. " |
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| annepan001 |
Letter re: mandatory vaccinations to MPI sent this to my MP last week, which I was informed the following morning would be sent to the appropriate Secretary of State. I'll let you know if/when I receive a reply:"I am writing to ask for confirmation that no matter how serious the H1N1 outbreak becomes, or whatever other mitigating circumstances may occur, there will be no compulsory vaccination or medication with Tamiflu / Relenza etc in the UK. I have heard of various reports that other countries are planning forced vaccinations, which would be a travesty in any civilised democratic country. Vaccinations and medications of all types carry their own risks, and previous mass vaccination programmes have resulted in illnesses and deaths much worse than would have been caused by the original virus. The WHO has itself admitted that the H1N1 vaccinations will not be thoroughly tested, and has confirmed that experimental adjuvants will be used in some vaccines, thereby greatly increasing the risk. Mistakes can and do happen - In the winter of 2008, Baxter’s Austrian biomedical research laboratories manufactured and distributed to 16 countries an influenza vaccine that was contaminated with a live Bird Flu virus. The contaminated vaccine material consisted of a mixture of a seasonal H3N2 human influenza virus and the deadly H5N1 virus. By adding a virus of the type H5N1 to an ordinary flu virus of the type H3N2, Baxter produced a highly dangerous biological weapon with a 63% mortality rate. A laboratory in the Czech Republic blew the whistle before a worldwide catastrophe was unleashed when all animals they tested died from the vaccine. http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html Baxter uses BSL 3 (Biosafety Level 3) precautions in its laboratories, safeguards which makes an accidental contamination of ordinary flu material with the dangerous bird flu virus impossible. In other words, there is a disctinct possibility that this deadly contamination was intentional. Incredibly, this incident that very nearly killed millions was not followed up by any investigation from the WHO, EU, or Austrian health authorities. Austrian Health Minister, Alois Stoger, later revealed that the incident had been handled not as a biosecurity lapse, as it should have been, but as an offense against the veterinary code. What independent tests will be carried out by UK labs to assess the safety of the H1N1 vaccines before they are distributed?" |
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| annepan001 |
So ... you might have guessed I'm pretty worried about all this!
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| Smooth Hound |
i dont know about a reply, theyll more than likely take you away 
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| baldowrie |
Clearly you personally do not want the vaccine however all your 'quotes' are anti vaccine and not a balanced view. Example above. Autism is very strongly felt to be a genetic disorder, a lot research also supports that, and that vaccines given is coincidental at the time the symptoms of more severe autism starts to show. http://www.nas.org.uk/nas/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=115&a=3578 Yes some child will react to a vaccine however it is also very likely these same children would get the severe side effect the of the actual disease. When and if the vaccine is offered I for one will probably be taking it, manufactured and released virus or not. You note I say probably because I am an intelligent person and therefore do check out these things before getting them done. My reasons are simple I have a compromised immune system and a lone parent with an autistic child. I can not afford to be ill. |
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| Smooth Hound |
Re: Letter re: mandatory vaccinations to MP
its worrying isnt it |
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| Fia |
I don't have time to go through all your conspiracy theories, annepan, but will respond to some:
This is a straw man - childhood mortality was far higher before the 1950s, better nutrition, healthcare and understanding and labelling of infant deaths lead to cot death statistics, not immunisation.
I can't find any peer reviewed references to this rather odd assertion.
Is this the same discredited chap whose "research" into MMR erroneously stated it caused autism?!
 Well, that's hilarious coming from a homoeopath. No proof has ever been given for the efficacy of homoeopathy either, beyond a woo-woo assertion that water has "memory"...
I would agree here. Although I am clearly not against vaccination - after all vaccination globally eradicated smallpox - immunising later in life, when the child starts socialising, has always seemed to be a safer option, giving the childs immune system a chance to mature. It is not an argument against vaccination, merely suggesting a slightly different timescale.
This, again, is not peer reviewed research, but supposition.
Anecdote, however upsetting, is not science.
Where is this evidence, then?
Supposition and scare mongering. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that vaccination can change our genetic code - just how would it do that?! I do understand that you are concerned as to the benefits or not of immunisation. But IMHO profligating unjustified conspiracy theories does not really help. I suggest you look at this website for starters: http://www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/ and this ones rather good too http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html |
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| annepan001 |
It's easy to dismiss everything which goes against the commonly held belief system as a conspiracy theory, and I used to do the same. I used to be a big believer in vaccinations too - we've all been indoctrinated with their benefits from school age onwards, so why would we believe anything else?
Then - as I watched my mother being slowly killed by drug-upon drug prescribed by the medical profession - I started to dig deeper than the mainstream press with a more open mind, and over the last several years have gone from a believer to a sceptic. We all believe that smallpox was eradicated due to vaccinations, but look at graph no. 4 here, and the picture doesn't look quite so clear: http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html Quackwatch is a pro-pharmaceutical industry sponspored website. They have $billions to lose if we all reject the magic bullet approach to symptoms and instead look at root causes and take our health into our own hands. Don't get me wrong, I think medics do the best job they can based on the pharmaceutical-biased training they're given, and if you break a leg, or need brain surgery they can work miracles. But that doesn't mean they're infallible. I just want to expose some of the alternative viewpoints which never make it into the mainstream press, which is strictly controlled. Mass medication of our young, or pregnant, or immune-compromised people with an experimental vaccine rushed into production against an influenza which kills fewer people than the usual flu does not make medical or economic sense. This is why the alarm bells are ringing! A healthy society should be able to debate issues without resorting to censorship, and the whole of scientific history is littered with examples where long-held beliefs were later proved to be wrong. Many pharmaceutical drugs which are launched as the next big thing are quickly withdrawn a few years later when the recipients of those drugs suffer from the awful side effects. This happened in 1976 in the USA when they last released a so-called swine flu ... one person died, and they organised a mass vaccination of 40 million people ... several hundred of whom became ill, some died - not from flu, but from the vaccine. Re: your request for the evidence from Viera Scheibner's quote, you should find what you need here: http://www.vierascheibner.org/ Please look beyond the headlines and do some research beyond the pharmaceutical-industry-sponsored sales pitch, keep an open mind, and make your own mind up. Before anyone injects your child with a vaccine ask them for a guarantee that it's safe, and that they will compensate you if it reacts badly. That shouldn't be too much to ask. Why is it then that governments around the world are signing agreements with the manufacturers that they will NOT be liable for any damage their vaccines cause? |
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| Fia |
I am very sorry to read about your Mother, annepan, and I can quite understand how you have come to the conclusions you have.
The smallpox graph you refer to is curious I agree. I'm inclined to think there were other variables. The links don't work for the citations though, which is also curious... As for Viera Scheibner, she is a retired micropaleontologist, not a medical doctor. In 1997, the Australian Skeptics awarded her the "Bent Spoon Award". This award is presented annually to the Australian "perpetrator of the most preposterous piece of pseudoscientific piffle": "The unanimous choice of the judges was Dr Viera Scheibner for her high profile anti-immunisation campaign which, by promoting new age and conspiracy mythology and by owing little to scientific methodologies or research, poses a serious threat to the health of Australian children." (source: wiki- referenced) So I'm afraid her work does not stand up to scientific scrutiny. If she really had a point, wouldn't she have done her research better? The following is from the Quackwatch website:
annepan said:
I'm not saying that all doctors are infallible, but I do assert that many "alternative" therapies are based on the placebo effect and the fact that they take much time talking with their clients, which is what NHS doctors don't have, and is often just what people need. As anyone who knows me knows - I am open minded. IMHO the best way to come to any sort of conclusion is to test with the properly verified scientific method. It's the only way I can rationally make any choice. Anything else is conjecture. |
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| Smooth Hound |
 ill come out now
im sort of divided here, i can see what your both saying, and your both right, which leaves me a bit confused
 
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| annepan001 |
Interestingly, yahoo is reporting today that 30% of nurses surveyed don't want to take the new flu jab, approx 1/3 do, another 1/3 haven't made up their minds yet. :
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090...s-don-t-want-flu-jab-6323e80.html I spent 12 years doing practical scientific research, and many more surveying literature on a wide range of topics. I've seen our government experts get it wrong time and time again - from BSE in the early 90s, when as a young postdoc I read the literature and couldn't understand how they could conclude that BSE was not transmissable between species. I was so convinced of the dangers that I immediately stopped eating meat and only drank imported milk and cheese! Even their own expert report contained references to evidence that BSE could and did jump the species barrier, and sure enough, over 100 people lost their lives to it. The most recent report of the FSA on the potential health benefits of organic food is another example ... they carefully limited the remit of the researchers to ensure they got their preferred result, omitting the biggest, most recent and most comprehensive study on organic food which showed clear health and nutritional benefits. The researcher at the Rowett who reported that GM potatoes caused health problems in rats was hounded out of his post and a smear campaign conducted against him after intervention by no less than Bill Clinton. The research has since been duplicated and confirmed by several other research labs, but our own govt still insists on trying to push the GM agenda while ignoring the independent research studies demonstrating health problems in experimental animals. In the meantime, yet another highly experienced research scientist had his career abruptly stopped because he dared to report something which might go against the agenda of the corporate funders and governments. And another - The neurotoxins Aspartame & Monosodium glutamate are almost ubiquitous in 1,000s of processed foods and drinks, despite 100 or so independent research papers showing a range of dangerous side effects, and despite the 1,000s of complaints about adverse health reactions filed with the FDA in the USA. They are even in some of the vaccines! Why would sweeteners and flavour enhancers be added to an injected vaccine? So many official policies do not make sense these days that it has been an uncomfortable few years coming to the realisation that our governments do not, after all, seem to have our best interests at heart. Money seems to be the be all and end all, so as a rule of thumb it's always worth looking to see who stands to gain financially or politically from any major policy initiative. Mass vaccinations clearly pay a handful of vaccine manufacturers very handsomely. If I could see a clear benefit to the people being vaccinated, that wouldn't bother me, but right now, I see only unacceptable risk and the manufacturers ducking any responsibility for the consequences. Please do keep sharing information on this - both pros and cons - because it is incredibly important! |
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| annepan001 |
By the way, I hope you do read some of Viera Scheibner's research. It makes little difference what sort of scientist you are ... the scientific method applies across many disciplines. Not being a medical scientist perhaps means that she didn't hold to the rigid beliefs that others did, which allows a certain freedom of thought which may have allowed a spotlight to fall on an area which the Australian Skeptics and/or pharmaceutical companies would rather have kept in the dark.
I'm always intrigued when someone is vilified publicly for reporting an 'opposite' view to the current paradigm. It is often a sign that that person is 'onto something'. |
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| earthroots |
To be of any use to people and planet scientific research needs to be tempered with compassion, emotional intelligence and spiritual insight- it rarely seems to be though. Funded by multinational corporations and corrupt governments and promoted by media propaganda - the truth of scientific research is impossible to reach.
I tend to make decisions on such issues by referring to sources I trust, people who don't have vested interests or a personal agenda. I found this article useful, particularly for understanding how a vaccine works on the body, what an adjuvant is and the concerns of using squalene as one. http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2009/08/67930.php I want to say well done to Annepanne - I much appreciate your investigations into this issue. I don't like the term conspiracy theory - it is incredibly dismissive of huge bodies of work being carried out in the name of social justice. I am enjoying Fia's clever responses - debate is a great way to learn - it works for me anyway. Keep it coming! |
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| Julie |
Hmmm.........I like scientific research to be as unemotional and discompassionate as it is unbiased. How else can it be simple truth and of any use? The very definition of science, it seems to me, is that it deals solely with fact and the quest for evidence and truth. Is'nt it therefore a contradiction in terms to call it science if it is tempered with emotion, compassion and spiritual insight? The trouble isn't the science per se, it's what humans do with the progress that science makes that needs addressing. |
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| Smooth Hound |
and wat is regarded as progress | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Julie |
And how their findings are obtained too I guess.
We could open a whole new can-o-worms talking about ethics............... |
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| Smooth Hound |
yea
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| Zeno001 |
An interesting topic!
Sorry for the long first post! I'll try not to make future ones as long. Promise! |
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| Martin |
oh lor, where angels fear to tread..........
I'm highly sceptical about the whole thing - I'll try to avoid the areas already discussed as much as possible, but I think you'll soon see where my suspicions lie........ Firstly, always look for the money - who's making money, and how?....... oh that would be Tony Bliar's muckers who own the companies that make the "antivirals" and the vaccines.... nothing suspicious there then........ Would I allow my child/grandchild to be vaccinated? - most certainly not..... having survived the polio epidemics of the 50's and 60's unscathed, thanks to NOT being vaccinated (and I remember the hellish battles and ostracisation my parents went through at the time because of it) - several of my peers are crippled for life thanks to the early vaccines, some ended up in iron lungs, and are no longer with us...... I think the whole "swine flue" thing stinks - whether it's because of the vile animal Belsens in which such viruses may have come about, or the glib and slick money-making Big Pharma machine swinging into action...... Tamiflu was "flogged" to a gullible public as being as innocuous as Smarties, yet now they're advising against it's use for children (by golly those reactions must be dreadful for them to risk their profits by making that sort of announcement)........
I'm yet to be convinced of the intrinsic safety of vaccinations anyway, and I would most certainly NOT consent to be an "early uptaker" of a "new" vaccine - it's the old story - carry out the tests on a gullible public, make sure the company's "dirty tricks" department is well funded to hide the bodies, pay bribes (sorry, incentivise people to enter confidentiality agreements)..... and on rolls Big Pharma........ 
Do I (unfashionably) think there may well have been a link between MMR and autism? - most definitely! (If only through the mercurial preservative used) Stands to sense that to challenge an immature immune system once is questionable, to do it with a cocktail of three - sheer lunacy. If you want evidence of what "people in the business'" attitude to swine flu vaccine is, look at the large cloud of dust as health workers head for the horizon rather than risk it...... Conspiracies? - dunno, wouldn't put it past the b*stards - I reckon it's sheer opportunism by Big Pharma and their wholly-owned buddies in government - nothing new, just business as usual by the poison-makers! |
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| Smooth Hound |
i dont think ill bother with it, im boosting my immune system , herbally | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Fia |
Gosh! I've been busy today and so has this thread  ...lots to say but I'll try and be brief with it being tomorrow already...
There seems to be 2 threads within this one: science v conjecture and some justified anger against big business wandering into conspiracy territory. To address some of the first:
And just how valid a representation is a self-selected on-line poll? I could start one up here, with carefully worded options and make the results prove almost anything. (if I get more time I'll give it a go to show you what I mean...) This is an example of what I mean about the rationality of using scientific method. Some of the emotional rather than rational thinking, combined with scare mongering and conspracy theories are making made it very difficult for people to make up their minds.
The second, of course, is more problematic, as however much we ask conspiracy theorists for evidence they will always say it's been covered up, which is why such ideas spread so easily. But I'll have a quick wee go:
Well most of us neepsters know to read labels and not buy processed cr*p, and the exponential growth of being aware of what we eat, growing our own food, being greener and more organic, living a sustainable lifestyle as possible shows that we consumers do have a choice to not purchase such stuff.
er... evidence please...
I have already been told by my GP I will be offered it, being a frontline care worker, and will gladly have it to minimise any risk to my elderly, frail, disabled and terminal clients. I'll let you know how it goes
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| Maria |
Enlightening thread - thanks for the info Annepan. I don't know nearly enough about what medical science might offer (request?!) me and mine to have!
Ill informed as i am, sometimes things don't just seem 'right' - this is one of those times. The cervial cancer preventative jab has the same effect on me...what is it? ALL 17 year old females? On the strength of some horrific blunders (like the polio vaccine) i feel compeled to find out what i can...but the info is often confusing and jam packed with more 'science' than my poor flabby brain can cope with.
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| Maria |
Oops. Forgot to say  to Neeps Zeno001.
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| Smooth Hound |
maybe i will have one then i just dont know
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| baldowrie |
SH the best place and person for you to discuss this with would be your doctor.
Personally my family will be having done for 2 reasons. ! I have compromised immune system and my children's sole carer. 2 my daughter is allergic to penicillin, and other antibiotics. Both children rarely get ill but when they do they go down very hard. My daughter caught the flu for the first time last year, she is 13. Within 24 hours she had a chest infection. She had only a mild dose of flu. Will my daughter be having the cervical cancer jab? No as she is not in a high risk group and the side effects out weight that at present. Plus she is only 13 and I feel too young. |
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| earthroots |
[/quote]
Hmmm.........I like scientific research to be as unemotional and discompassionate as it is unbiased. How else can it be simple truth and of any use? perhaps I should have said with more clarity that I don't believe the scientific community can be unbiased and rather than being driven by profit I would prefer to see it driven by compassion etc etc Also I would have though this discussion is largely about the ethics of medical science and how those of us without medical knowledge are going to manage to make an informed choice when so many involved in providing the vaccinations have questionable ethics. Something that worries me in particular is that the pharmaceuticals stand to make a lot of money out of this and, in the US anyway, the government has given the companies supplying flu vaccines legal immunity from anyone who suffers side affects - why should they make money out of something they are unwilling to take liability for? Does anyone know if this is happening in the UK? I haven't come across anything so far. This is the first time i've tried the quote thing - hope it works |
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| earthroots |
quote thing didn't work 
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| earthroots |
[quote= whether it's because of the vile animal Belsens in which such viruses may have come about[/quote]
This is mainly just an attempt to try the quote thing again The likely source of this swine flu is the crux of the ethics for me - if folks are unwilling to stop buying mass produced meat out of compassion for the creatures tortured and killed, perhaps now they will at least consider it in the name of self preservation - we certainly do reap what we sow in the long run. |
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| earthroots |
I think I need a workshop on how to use forums!
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| Martin |
don't worry, I've set up, used and moderated fora for years, and I've never got my head round the inbuilt quote thing - I just cut and paste - like this-
"or the glib and slick money-making Big Pharma machine swinging into action...... So what do you suggest they do? Take the huge risk that this mutates into something far worse and millions - because that's what it could be - die needlessly, or utilise verifiable science to develop a vaccine?" I think that umpteen points are being deliberately sidestepped/avoided by this statement.......... First of all, the comment I made was directed as much towards the likes of "Tamiflu" as the vaccines - even by their own admission, Tamiflu shortens the attack by a day, and does little to minimise severity or outcome - probably more to the point, they are only now grudgingly admitting that the side-effects are pretty vile, to such an extent that they're now backpedalling on giving it to children......(they'll be hating the dent in profits) If the virus is going to mutate, it's going to mutate, vaccine, effective or otherwise will do clutter all to stop that - there is also a large body of thought that suggests that vaccination can be counter-productive (mutation is encouraged). "Verifiable Science" - herrumph! Science is only as good as the questions you ask of it, and the parameters that you set - Big Pharma is extraordinarily good at asking the questions to give the answers that it wants, and ignoring those that won't result in more sales, regardless of the outcome for the patients Then sitting at the top of this pile of pharmaceutical corruption, we have the BMA and government - both wholly-owned subsidiaries of Big Pharma..... The public, whipped into a frenzy "wanting something done" by the knuckle-dragging Daily Fail, and in the usual brainless sheep manner of modern thought, expect the government to "do it for them". The government asks it's advisors, who are Big Pharma owned/brainwashed/bribed/incentivised, and lots of possibly useless/dangerous nostrums are sold, Bliar's buddies get even richer, the flu outbreak takes it's course, and government basks in brownie points for being seen to have "done something"........ squandered gazillions on largely useless/dangerous and side-effect riddled antivirals, and rushed a potentially dangerous vaccine onto the market...... if people die as a result, they can easily blame the virus, and the pharmaceutical industry enjoys the "teflon effect" - "we tried, but it was the virus.........."
As I said - "business as usual" |
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| Forget-me-Not |
VaccinesWe're for boosting immunity herbally and homeopathy. No vaccines in this house. We read and listened to quite a bit before coming to this conclusion a few years ago.When it comes down to swine flu or peak oil, we'll all do what we believe is best. There won't be a straight forward answer for all. Some people will always trust the government and the big money, others never will. Thankfully forums provide a space to discuss these issues and promote education. Just getting people to think about any of these issues, is a step forward. Beth |
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| Julie |
Earthroots,
If you go to the post you want to quote from and click on the bit at the top which says quote, you will get a reply window with the whole post written in it. You can then delete the parts of the post that you don't want to use and add your reply underneath. Don't forget to leave the begining and end words (quote) on the original post (they appear in brackets), or it goes wrong. I never thought I would see the day when I could tell someone how to do something regarding the computer........Hope my explaination made sense in my laymans wording. |
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| earthroots |
Many thanks Julie - here goes for another try |
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| earthroots |
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| IainC |
You got in before me 
You can also "easily" answer each part of someones original reply by just ensuring that the start and end quote parts are around their bit. You can have as many of them in each post as you want. I've used "round" brackets instead of the square ones just to show you. i.e (quote) blah blah blah, point 1 (/quote) yeah but answer point 1 (quote) blah blah point 2 (/quote) Piffle
Gets more "interesting" if you are quoting someone who's quoting someone so you have nested quotes... just ensure there are the same number of (/quote)'s as there are (quote) and you *should* be okay... unless you really mess it up
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| Julie |
ooooh..ah ha, I always wondered how that was done, thankyou oh great enlightning one
Don't you just hate it though? It looks so petty when folks do it to argue point by point. I never read those as nine times out of ten they're so angry they just talk rubbish anyway
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| IainC |
I rarely do it, but sometimes it's easier to read if you are answering a million points someone has made in a previous post
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| Smooth Hound |
rarely talk rubbish, or list the points
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| IainC |
I think that's patently obvious
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| Julie |
It could work as a way to break up one of those great long rants that break your brain just looking at them
Might fool people like me into reading at least a bit of them. |