Natural Energy

Maidenstone · Natural Energy

Just a reminder that NATURAL ENERGY, the renewable energy event for homes and small businesses here in the north-east of Scotland, is on Saturday at the Thainstone Centre just outside Inverurie (off the Thainstone roundabout on the Aberdeen side of Inverurie). It starts at 11am and goes on till 4pm. There are now over 20 exhibitors, including agencies who deal with grants and advice, so if you want to find out anything about small-scale renewable energy systems, insulation, energy reduction, architectural matters, etc., this is a great chance to see it all under one roof. The mart catering company will have a stall there so you don't even have to bring a packed lunch!!

lachlanandmarcus

oh I no am away, and would love to have gone to that....grrrr...bet it will be really good too!

Maidenstone

The Aberdeenshire Environmental Forum had a special meeting one night last year and invited people along to find out more about small-scale renewable energy systems. We couldn't get them all into the Council Chamber at Gordon House without using a shoe-horn - it was standing room only! So that's when we decided to hold this fair as there was obviously a lot of interest and desire to find out more about renewable energy. I'm hoping to find out how to insulate our old granite croft house with a 9" gap between the granite and the plasterboard, together with howling draughts!!! We probably can't do it without stripping out all the plasterboard and replacing it with p/b + insulation, or special insulating p/b. But anything to stop all the heat leaking out!!

lachlanandmarcus

first thought is you might be able to make small hole and with a reverse vacuum thingy blow in that special paper pellet insulation stuff? but they would be able to advise on all the options...

Maidenstone

No, afraid not. You HAVE to leave a big enough gap to rule out the possibility of causing a damp 'bridge' from the granite to the plasterboard. Granite walls aren't waterproof, it's probably the mortar but I'm not sure, and also there is no damp proof course , so anything stuffed in between the two would just enable moisture to creep over into the plasterboard causing horrendous damp problems. Probably the easiest way of doing it would be to put in good insulating plasterboard a room at a time, but being no expert I would think we would even have problems with this.

lachlanandmarcus

aah I see what you mean, shame that!

JamesB

to get a wall really airtight you'd need to strip to the stone wall, insulate, put in a airtight layer (membrane or wallboard type) which is well sealed, then services then plasterboard. difficult to get right with just a plasterboard layer since need to use airtight electrical sockets etc if no dedicated airtight layer.

however if even you dont do this, it is still worth getting relatively airtight ie making sure all gaps and holes and joins are sealed

the event on sat sounds interesting, i'll try and get along.

James

Julie

With these stone walls such as we have in our steading, you need an air gap between the insulation and the stone of at least one inch, it mustn't touch the wall. If you don't, the insulation can wick the moisture in and cause problems.
Injecting a stud wall might be tricky depending on the layout of the stud framework. If it is hard up against the wall all over, you would have to do it in sections and drill many holes.
Solid, block insulation, such as rockwool would be a good solution. You cut it to fit into the spaces in the studding and you will be able to leave a gap. You can use a mesh to keep insulation off the walls too, thats what Gordon did.

Maidenstone

Thanks Julie - I'm hoping to have a word with Annie Kenyon, the architect, at the Natural Energy fair on Saturday, and it is good to have some ideas to ask her about. The rockwool sounds good - we must have stud framework that the existing plasterboard is on, so to fill that up before putting new plasterboard up sounds as if it could be a good solution.

Julie

If it is very old you might find it is the old lath and plaster kind, in which case, it may not have a lot of depth behind it to fill up with insulation. Whatever you do though, it is worth doing a good job and it will pay you back in the energy savings over the long term.
That architect will probably know about any new products on the market that may be more use to you.

JamesB · stud walls

if you have a stud wall then I would doubt it would be anywhere near deep enough (might not even be 100mm). since you are going to the trouble and expense of removing the plasterboard anyhow then worth putting in a 2nd stud wall with a gap to the 1st stud wall. the 2nd stud wall can be thinner studs since not structura (although your 1st stud might not be either)l. you can then insulate between the studs and between the stud wall. you can also get less thermal bridging since the you will have a near continous layer of insulation between the stud walls. you can make the depth of insualation anythickness. we have this solution and was fairly easy to do (I did most of it myself). its also worth going to some trouble to make the inside of the inner stud wall as relatively airtight [ie draft proofing] as possible as per my previous post (it will pay back)

James

Julie

In a house with open fires or any combustion heat source, an airflow is essential (to comply with building regs if nothing else) exhaust fumes need to flow out and fresh air in. What suits one type of build may not be suitable for another. Ultimately, you need to work with what you've got don't you....well, unless you're completely redesigning your house and money is no object.
Wouldn't that be nice

JamesB

sorry I should be clearer, I dont mean making really airtight in which case you need a ventillation system but removing as many of the drafts as possible ie relatively airtight. I'll edit my previous post to make clear, thanks for pointing it out.

if you have a wood burning stove then a separate supply of controllable combustible air is a good idea anyhow ie a pipe fed from outside directly into the stove. you stove will burn better and be easyier to start. even moden buildings in the uk built to poor airtighness often still need this nowadays for a stove to get started (or you open the front door)

once you go beyond a certain amount of insulation and depending on the draftyness of your house then it is more cost effective to draft proof(ie make realtively airtight) than to insulation.

my point really is if you are going to go to the trouble of rebuilding the inside of your house then worth getting doing more than just insulating. it is relatively cheap to do at this stage but very difficult once complete.im not talking about lots of money.

in terms of building regulations, the regs are getting much tighter in the uk for getting houses airtight but still have some way to go.
to give an idea, a traditional old house has something like 10 to 20 airchanges per hour, modern uk build might achieve 5 air changes, once you get down to 1-2 airchanges per hour then you need a ventilation system. so you could double or triple the airtight of an old house and not have any problems with air quality (for which you need a ventilation system).

the maximum 'build tight, ventilate right' is quite appropriate.

james

Julie

You'd hate me James, I love to fling all the windows open and blow a gale through the house

The original fresh air fiend, that's me

Got to agree though, if you're going to the trouble, you might as well do the best job you can.

JamesB

yeah i do! (only kidding, i love u really!)

open windows are great in the summer but surely you dont open them in winter?

ive become very draft senstive in the last few years, anyone want a draft detector thats me!

James

Sassinak

I like to have the windows open for at least part of each day unless there is driving rain or really bitter cold.

As to the super insulation of the old granite house - surely a lot will depend on the size of the rooms and the amount that they are prepared to sacrifice? If they have fairly small rooms as were standard in the older properties, then to remove a foot from each dimension will have quite an impact on the usefulness.

JamesB

well im not necessarily talking superinsulation (which is about 300mm of standard insulation), even at 150mm or 200mm of insulation, it worth doing something about draughts. It obviously depends on how draughty the current house. Also, modern insulations could produce an effective insulation of more than the same depth of standard insulation. also draught proofing takes up little depth so you might be even more inclined to save heat by draught proofing than by extra insulation.

opening windows is at least controlled ventilation whereas leaky walls, windows and doors is uncontrolled ventilation so better to remove constant draughts and have controllable ventilation.

James

Maidenstone

We've also got a radon issue here, were tested a few years ago and have a medium reading though not high enough to require work to get rid of it. So we do need ventilation - although not draughts. I like our draughts because of the radon, but it's not pleasant living in a cold house in winter, and it's a waste of money heating the house only to have it all sucked out, let alone the environmental issues involved!

Maidenstone

I just wish we could build a zero carbon wooden house and sell this one!

JamesB

yes you need ventilation, everyone does but no-one needs draughts. we have good air quality since we have a ventilation system (some poeple seem to think that airtight houses would have bad air quality, they dont since they have ventilation systems).

if you have radon then I presume its coming from the ground or from grantite walls. you would need ventilation in the outside walls and under the floor but there is no reason why you need increased ventilation inside the house as long as you ventilated the exterior. actually i would of thought draughts from the walls and floor would be the last thing you want since they will allow radon in rather then getting it to the outside.

James

Julie

I'm sure I was told something about Aberdeen being more radioactive than most places because there is so much granite there - not dangerously so, but it was interesting.
Can anyone do a better job of explaining it than me ? - or refuting it if I'm wrong of course.

JamesB

went to the natual energy show in the afternoon. didn't see any neeps but met plenty of other people we know. overall was a bit disappointing, the only stand that was really popular was proven energy and you had to Q to get a quote.

had a few interesting chats but a lot were big national companies and would of been nice to see more of the local suppliers as well

the ecomerchant had a good stand and they supply a lot more products than they used to and can distribute through one of the big building suppliers. if anyone is looking for isonat, thermofleece, lindab guttering, proclimba airtightness products etc then worth checking out. they also do the 1st triple glazed windows i have heard of being sold directly in the UK (currently made in lithunia but production moving here next year)

James

Maidenstone

They were hoping to get 500 people to the Natural Energy fair today, but got well over 800, and the feedback we got was really good. The architects were very good and helpful, from near Insch, (AKA), and AD Heating - who are local - were great. They showed the burner of a wood pellet stove, and I wonder how long it will be before other fuel stoves can be converted to burn pellets and then save the huge price on dedicated pellet stoves. Good info about solar water and underfloor heating (from solar panels) and they also told me if your floors are unsuitable you can have skirting board heating. Mick Bestwick from Highland Eco-Design - he's a micro-hydro engineer, was doing great business with big queues. It was a shame that other local companies who had been invited didn't bother to come, but at least we could speak to all the ones who did. Most companies said they had had a LOT of interest and were grateful for the chance to show their 'wares' ... a very successful day!

Julie

It might be that a lot of these other local compamies couldn't afford the cost of a stand there in the current economic climate. I expect they are all having to prioritise if business is slow and unless these shows generate enough new business to cover their costs, it may not be worthwhile for them.
A great many people who express an interest won't follow it up. It all comes down to profit in the end.

Martin

Having "done" shows as an exhibitor, you can see why many companies resort to "foot in the door, high pressure" salesmanship...........
First of all, many are purely for the benefit and profit of the people running the exhibition - whatever happens, they've made their money - you've turned up to try to sell your services, and the hefty outlay means that effectively you've got to sell a lot to spread the cost (or your prices have to go up) - then there's the horror of a day flogging your wares..........
Often the venue is overheated, and sod's law, every time you put a hydrating cup of tea or water to your lips, there's some smartie pants who wants to waste half an hour of your time, so by the end of the day you have a splitting headache, you're in a filthy mood, and all you've done is supply vicarious entertainment to some time-wasters who had nothing better to do of a soggy Saturday........... been there, done that, got the "waste of time" t-shirt!
I'm not saying this exhibition was like that, but many are, and could well explain the exhibitor's lack of enthusiasm - I've also found that the sort of companies that do take part often tend to be of the "mug a minute" persusion, gleefully offsetting the expense and hassle by filling an appointment book for their "make a sale at all costs" people.........

Julie

I guess you're entitled to the rant if you've suffered the experience

It must be frustrating, bless.

It was more or less what I meant by 'a great many people who express an interest won't follow it up'. I think you have to accept that a lot of people do go to these shows to be educated though, and by being there, you are fair game.

bracken · exhibition

we went to the exhibition but came away disappointed. I spoke to a chap about a free survey for solar panels and he was very dismissive. I asked what did the free survey entail and he said that they come to check if your home is south facing (yes it is) is it free from over hanging trees/buildings (yes it is). When I told him this he shrugged his shoulders and said that I'd better speak to the sales person. All I wanted was a survey to see if my current central heating set up is suitable for convertion, the roof space was enough to accommodate the pipe work, the roof itself is strong enough to hold the installation. We then went to speak to Aberdeenshire Council representatives who were a great double act - when asked a question the female passed it over to the male (lurking at the back of the stand) who came up, we asked the question again and he passed us over to the stand to the right who were the SCARF team.
I know this type of exhibition attracts tyre kickers and that not every contact is a sale but there seemed to be no-one taking names/phone numbers to follow up any query....

I did get some very nice pens though........

Martin

Sample dialogue (after a full 15 minute, painstaking explanation).......
"so for those reasons we don't supply or fit roof-mounted wind turbines - we know they won't payback, and will likely be "trouble"..........
"But I still want one!"

Or from wedding fair days, having spent ages explaining that your style is "reportage", and they'll end up with 180 plus photos, and you don't do soft-focus 'cos it's naff - "well, I only want 30 photos, and I would like some of those romantic fuzzy ones.... couldn't you do it cheaper?" - followed by the gentle explanation (again) that if you've written the day off for their wedding, there's no way you can stand there most of the time deciding NOT to press the button, and you'd have to charge exactly the same.......... or seeing the same trio that have haunted wedding fairs for the last seven years heading in your direction (I once hid under the table) - Mum and two daughters from a local sink estate - of a size and shape that suggest they'd need a marquee supplier rather than a dressmaker, liberally moustachioed, and looks that would curdle milk from several miles...... this wasn't offset by sunny personalities either - as far as all the exhibitors knew, none of them had marriage, or even a prospective partner in view - it was just a good "free afternoon out"

Maidenstone

No wonder you got into renewable energy instead, Martin!!

I realised that because of the numbers of folk asking questions yesterday that it would be easier for me to take their phone numbers/email addresses and contact them away from the fair when I'd got their full attention! I do know that the guy with Proven generators took down everyone's name if they wanted to be contacted, and he had quite a wodge of paper at the end, and was exhausted after having a queue of people at his stand for the WHOLE day!! That's why the exhibitors give out pens, more useful than just business cards, and the message stays in your mind longer as you use the pens!
Far from local businesses not being able to afford the low cost of a stand (the AEF did not make any profit from the event, that was NOT the intention, but do you know how much it costs to rent the Thainstone Exchange for the day??, print banners and posters etc.) - most of them said they had too much work on and didn't need the public exposure to attract more!
It was a good event to sniff round and meet companies and agencies, read and hear about their technologies, get some sort of idea of what you could use, then you could get back to them with a serious request. I don't suppose anybody signed on the dotted line yesterday, but I certainly don't think there were any 'tyre kickers' there. Unlike the All-Energy show at the AECC earlier this year, MOST of the visitors to the show were seriously interested in the renewable technologies and making use of them in their homes and businesses.

Julie

At the risk of sounding argumentative, I feel that to state 'Most' of the people there were serious and using the technology currently would entail you personally knowing them all - you are well connected indeed.................

Also, in the interest of balance, if only the truly earnest buyer went along to these things, the retailers would be saying it was ill attended and poorly advertised. You have got to expect a certain amount of idle curiosity. Maybe some of the attendees will have the seeds sewn for the future at that fair, so it's all good, imo.

Maidenstone

No Julie - I meant most of the people there were seriously interested in the renewable technologies and also seriously interested in using the technology, and not that they are currently using the technology - should I have used more punctuation there?? Most of the time I was on the 'arrivals' desk and saw a lot of the feedback forms that people willingly handed in and that is what a great many of them were saying. Of course not everyone would be jumping to take up these technologies, but I would say they were all interested in finding out about them, or why would they have come - there were far more exciting things on!!!

Julie

Ah....It was perhaps the way I read it........also goes to support your claim when you reveal all about the desk work

DiddleDeDum

Gosh you guys - you're a wee bit critical here! I thought it was great - it's not very often we get volunteers so enthused that they put something together like this and I was totally impressed. This was the first time they had done it and I'm sure they learned loads - and exhibitors will be queueing up to come along next time as it was well attended.

As usual there is not much environmetally friendly stuff actually discussed on here and here we are with a number of you slagging it off when folk try hard - shame on you!!

DiddleDeDum

Julie

As usual you couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread through DDD. If you had, you would realise that the discourse was about exhibitions in general and also quite balanced overall.
The general concensus of opinion regarding this show was that it had been well attended by keen visitors with great long queues at lots of stalls.
Baffled by your attitude frankly.........