Anyone got any recommendations for wind turbines?

annepan001 · Anyone got any recommendations for wind turbines?

Has anyone taken the plunge and installed a wind turbine for their home, or for a small number of homes? If so, can you share your experiences / advice on what to avoid, what to look for, reputable suppliers / fitters?

I read the topics on roof mounted chocolate teapots, so I won't be going down that route!

I live at about 600 feet, towards the top of a north facing slope in midmar. It'd be good to have the option to feed any xs electricity back into the grid, but also to have the option to go off-grid ... is this combo feasible??

I met someone from the energy saving trust recently who said that companies who become accredited installers tend to put their prices up so the grants that are available basically end up in the pockets of the companies, and individuals end up paying what would have been full price anyway.

Again, has anyone had any experience of this? Or is there a way to 'build your own' wind turbine which would be financially viable and still effective? So much to learn ...!!!

wildgarlic

Martin will be along to give his advice, I'm sure. I totally agree with the bit about the grants too so you might as well shop around

I am very interested in having some form of alternative power installed here too - whether it's water or wind - just haven't got the money to afford it yet. We're an all electric household at the moment and if the power goes off for whatever reason we've got nothing, including heat, cooking and water.

kimmie

hmmm thats spooky!

matt and I were looking at them too!
Martin gave us some great advice last year, but finances were and still are a bit tight, but OH's house up for sale we may be able to get one!
I recieved this pm from him last year

Martin

There's already some sterling advice in this thread - avoid roof-mounted chocolate teapots (they don't work), and don't rush in to buying equipment before you've done lots of homework. I advised someone recently on another forum to sell the Chinese turbine he'd bought - probably perfect down here in the near windless south (it was a "low windspeed" model), but destined to become turbine spaghetti in a western-isles blow!
The advice about grants is bang on right (the price goes stratospheric under their influence)
It is possible to "have the best of both worlds" and have a battery system AND export to the grid, but you are buying the major part of the system twice, so it's blessed expensive. (To do it properly is not cheap anyway!)
You can most certainly "build your own", and for that you'll need http://scoraigwind.com/ - the excellent (if a little tatty) website of the bloke who probably knows more than anyone else about wind in the UK.
Don't underestimate the dedication and skill needed to build your own - if you have it, Hugh knows his onions.....
Then two other points - you mention a north facing hill - traditionally most of the wind (and your power) comes from the South-west (from the other side of the hill), but high up, and in the countryside as you are, you may get a good amount from other directions too - you'd be wise to firstly check the new "is my site suitable for wind" thingummyjiggler on the Carbon Trust website, which will give you a rough idea (if in any doubt at all, invest a couple of hundred quid or so in some basic wind-monitoring equipment, and take readings over a period of months, it can save you a fortune).
The other practical tips I'd give is to have an informal chat with your local planners about a turbine (they can often be very helpful), and then "start at the other end" - scrutinise ALL electrical consumption very carefully (particularly if you're thinking of a battery system), and make all possible economies - never heat electrically in any shape or form, and even contemplate ditching electric fridge/freezers, and replace with bottled gas ones - then once you've done that, you only have to generate/store electricity for what can only be powered electrically, and it can cut costs by a lot!
You probably already know, but something to be borne in mind, particularly in remote areas is that if you're grid-tied and the line goes down, you have no electricity (it has to cut out completely, or your turbine electricity could fry the bloke up the pole repairing the line) - which has got to be one of the most frustrating scenarios ever - the wind is hurtling, turbine going like a dingbat, and you're sitting in the dark......

You're probably chomping at the bit to look at turbines - assuming that you may well get some hefty winds, go for solid UK-made turbines that are built to take it - look at Futurenergy and Miniwind at the lower price end, if cost is no object there's Proven - bombproof but very pricey!
Hope that helps

IainC

annepan001

Thanks very much for the speedy top tips!

Will check out the info online and see what I can find out there. SCARF say they may be able to send someone out to give some advice too. Our wind does tend to come from the southwest. I've been eyeing up the hill behind the house and wondering if we can come to some arrangement over siting a turbine on the top of it ... much will depend on our neighbour who owns that bit!

I like the idea of looking at all our electricity use too, to minimise it, with the goal of getting the smallest turbine needed to do the job. But also tempted to be able to make a small contribution to the national grid.

And even better in many ways would be to get the community here involved and do something jointly - which reduces cost per unit energy produced and spreads the 'ownership' and greens up the whole area. But I just wonder if it would take toooo long, rather than rustling up something small with only a couple of decision makers to talk to!

IainC

I was going to suggest that you paired up with your neighbours for one (if it's to go on their land) but then you'd probably end up having to go for a much larger turbine (and battery bank, etc) and it'd probably end up more expensive (and more hassle) than it's worth IYKWIM.

I really do want to get shifted to a place with a decent amount of land so I can start playing about with these things myself (although the cost of moving to somewhere with land would probably remove all my money, leaving me with nothing to "play" with

)

Sassinak

We looked at wind turbines in some depth - it's still on the cards if the money holds out !!
We were told that because of our 'good' windspeeds (gale force much of the year lol) that we would be better looking at the more substantial turbines as the cheaper ones that would be excellent down south would not stand up to the pressures that we would put it under in our breezy spot

annepan001

We had a 'freak' wind gust of 148 mph a few years ago, which carried off our 20x10 foot shed which had only been up for three months. It ended up all over the neighbouring fields/ hedges/ gardens! On Saturday even down in the veg field we could hardly stand up for the wind ... so we definitely need something robust. Which is why we have a Rhino greenhouse and a Keder tunnel with long guarantees against weather, and why we're planting windbreaks in strategic places to try to protect them!

obviously we need to avoid having windbreaks anywhere close to the turbine tho!

Martin

One or two points that got raised -
Prevailing wind over the UK is predominantly from the South West, but local conditions can turn that completely on it's head, particularly in coastal or mountain/hilly spots
Gusts do not nesser-celery mean that the wind is good for wind turbines (you can get enormous gusts in towns, but urban wind is usually a non-starter due to turbulence).....a wind turbine needs to "stick it's head into the wind and churn", lumpy wind is not a lot of good. The ideal spot for a turbine is in the middle of a field, with NO obstructions whatsoever for around 700 yards in all directions (particularly in the direction of your area's prevailing wind) - any fence, hedge, tree or building between the turbine and the wind can stuff the performance totally.
"Community Wind projects" are a brilliant idea - there are one or two Googleable projects that have already gone this route - like everything, it isn't easy, but it is doable. If you have a bigger turbine (80 or 250Kw), which should power from 8 to 20 or more homes, you get the "economy of scale", and pounds per kilowatt they are cheaper - best of all, they are "in scale", and come with tall towers that get the blades up and out of any turbulence - I'd recommend the Dutch company WES, who do an 80 and a 250kw that are well-tried!
Last but not least, battery systems - they're my favourite, but to do it properly is NOT cheap - suitable real deep-cycle batteries are jolly pricey, but can last 20 years - eventually they will need recycling.
Here's a link to a friend's blog - he lives on Raasay and is "off-grid", and uses a turbine, batteries, and Listers -
http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/ - he'll reiterate what I've said about not skimping on batteries, if you do, you end up with a vast pile of expensively dead ones.........

Ratchet

Dear All,

I'm going to sound like a bit of a party pooper but Wind power is just aboot the last thing that should be installed, it's the bling/icing after all the boring stuff has been done. Insualtion insulation insualtion, draft proofing etc, wood burning stove, then Solar power for water heating (if apropriite it's more cost effective) then if you've money left Wind. Unless of course you have a suitable source of water power which is much more reliable than wind. Solar pv may be worth investigating as it's becoming more efficient and effective with advances in technology.

Grants do distort things, being farmers we ken that stotts used to attract a subby from the dept. and guess what they were almost exactly that amount more expensive to buy than heifers.

Proven is a good make & Scottish, a 6kv one should be more than adequate (unless the problems with the blade springs have been sorted I'd avoid the 15/16kv one). A friend of mine has one (Proven 6kv) as has her next door neighbour. The initial outlay was a lot but it's going to pay for itself in 5 years, with the sale of ROCs and energy, maintenance has been minimal. Her map grid square was border line for adequate ave. windspeed, but a grid square is a large area and she happens to be on top of the hill in that square. It does come down to your specific location. If unsure get yourself an anenometer on top of a tall pole and take measurements over a period of time. On oor farm we're in no doubt as to the amount of wind even though we haven't measured it. It's just bloomin windy a lot of the time. Even so due to cost effectiveness we're going down the energy conservation route first.

Grid ties can be got around. Although I would suggest that you do it properly ie legally and safely. At the mo if we have power cut we can ( and I'm not saying we do) disconnect at the main switch (we wouldn't want to fry a linesman or our system) and then plug in a generator via a 3 pin plug, enough for lights, water pump and if nothing else is on a kettle for pot noodles/cuppa. It doesn't take a genious to realise that the pins on that plug would be live. So I don't recommend it unless you're happy with all the risks. We would however probably concoct something similar if we had a wind turbine. Oor friendly neighbour/friend/electrician is of a similar inclination as us so we'd work something out.

Yours

R

cmiddleton

Agree with Ratchet, I have looked into wind turbine before and had survey done. However, if you do the maths it is just never cost effective or green, when compared to switching your current electricity supplier to one that supplies actual green energy (as opposed to the 'green' tarriffs, which are often a mix).

Ratchet

Dear All

The web address below will help you find out the wind speed in your grid square.

http://www.berr.gov.uk/energy/sou...windspeed-database/page27326.html

My wind speed at 10m agl (in m/s) is 6.8. This is an average for the 1km grid square where our farm is. As we're very exposed I'd say that oor actual ave. would be slightly higher.

http://www.cat.org.uk/ CAT (Centre for Alternative Energy) has a range of publcations and advice on wind pwer.

Yours

Rx

Martin

There's a big problem with understanding what these "windspeed for a gridsquare" measurements actually boil down to in practice.
Firstly, the "NOABL" database is well-known to be pretty inaccurate, then the estimates (and they are very rough estimates) are usually for a "grid square - THEN there's the biggie - the "10m" figure means the estimated annual average windspeed for that gridsquare, 10m up from the ground and assuming the surroundings are flat grass or concrete for around half a mile in all directions (which is seldom encountered in practice) - ANY obstructions can and will make a terrific difference to the usability of any wind - it will tend to lessen it's windspeed, but more importantly, induces turbulence, which is the death knell for turbine performance.
Having said all that, and knowing that 99% of clients who fancy a wind turbine are not in the right position - if properly sited, they can be an excellent and very viable source of power, but you have to be VERY careful to do all the sums first, and not get carried away with over-enthusiastic prophecies (particularly from the vendors of roof-mounted chocolate teapots)

Ratchet

Agreed. We're renovating oor derelict farmhouse and will be going down the INSULATION, solar water heating, wood stove(s), thermal store, under-floor heating, and energy efficient lighting/appliances, route first. Hopefully oor electric bill will be peanuts so that changing from the Hydro to a really green tarriff won't be too painfull. I've investigated the properly green tarriffs (2 of them I think) and they are more expensive. That's oor plan domestically. Then in terms of the business, possibly a wind turbine or a big bale boiler. Something we have to consider is we need to dry grain, lots of it, and that uses vast amounts of oil (extortionate/criminal in terms of carbon and £'s). With finite financial resources we've got to choose which option is going to save us the most money or alternatively cost us the least if we decide to try and move away from oil.

My pal with the Proven wind turbine, if she had just looked at the figures on the wind speed database, wouldn't have entertained a turbine, as her grid square was very borderline for adequate wind speed at 10m. Now she didn't go to the extent of monitoring actual wind speeds, but looking at her position on top of a hill, taking into account the placement of mature trees & modern farmbuildings and 3 generations of knowledge, a suitable site was found not to far away from the house. She is very happy with the performance of her turbine as is her accountant. I can't post the exact figures a) because I can't properly remember them and b) I haven't got her permission.

We're in a similar position, I'm 99.9% certain that we have sites on oor farm that are suitable. It's routine for us to have to put round bales against shed doors if there is even a moderate breeze. Grandpa R planted shelter belts when there were grants available, (PLANT A TREE IN '73, PLANT SOME MORE IN '74, KEEP 'EM ALIVE IN '75). These really do provide much needed shelter for stock, but they are coming to the end of their usefulness (as shelter, but not as a fuel supply). We are going to clear fell some of these belts and replant with native species, but we'll keep in mind that we might install a turbine in the future; we don't want to compromise any of oor potential sites. We might even consider commercial turbines but that's a lot of bother and we've good neighbours we don't want to upset.

windyman

I've found this information a bit late - we decided to install a wind turbine just over 12 months ago - but none of the maths added up - we first investigated the "Swift" roof mounted model - its starting price was £3,500 but by the time they added a site survey and connecting the extra meter so you could feed back into the grid it came to over £10,000 - there was no way we could see us generating enough savings off our electricity bill to make that worthwhile.

But we are in a very windy position high on a hill, so decided to try out the Windsave turbine - as an experiment to see how much wind there was and how much power we could generate as much as anything. The cost was much better - around £1400 after the saving introduced by the grant. And its low power output means it fits into the scheme where any extra power you generate feeds back into the grid and winds the meter backwards, so if you do have any excess power you effectively sell it back to the electric company at FULL RETAIL PRICE!

As I say, we've been running for just over 12 months, at around 2.15 units of electricity per day on average, which at current electric prices means it will take us 12 years to pay back the installation costs.

I did like the look of http://www.skyrota.com at the All Energy exhibition the other month - their 6kw model comes in at £24,000 fully installed - and I think the vertical axis should work better in turbulence.

And, on Climate Change, one of the major advantages of wind power (and solar and wave) is that they take energy out of the climate system and so help reduce some of the effects of Global Warming/Climate Change.

It would be good to know how others are getting on with their wind turbine installations (if any) and also the costs and payback times (and recommended manufacturers/suppliers) for solar thermal power - and tricks on insulating granite houses... I'll keep looking round the forum to see what I can find, but if you want to help me out and post some pointers they will always be welcome...

"WindyMan"

Martin

"where any extra power you generate feeds back into the grid and winds the meter backwards, so if you do have any excess power you effectively sell it back to the electric company at FULL RETAIL PRICE!" - if this is actually happening (which I sincerely doubt, only very old meters "work backwards") I also hate to tell you, but it's illegal! (To export electricity you need a pukka separate "export" meter).
As the design life of a Windsave turbine is ten years, even with your entirely uncharacteristic "gains", it will never actually do more than repay it's original cost at best. I have a feeling you're using the figure shown on the "box" that comes with the turbine - this shows how much electricity has come out of the turbine. Usually Windsaves work on the "use it or lose it" system - if you have a load attached to your circuit that equals or exceeds what is being generated, you will use it yourself - otherwise it toddles off into the grid, and you don't get paid for it............
As for the "Skyrota", I'm also highly sceptical....... if you have a genuinely high windspeed position, you'd be far better off with a well-tried Proven or similar.

windyman

Martin - thanks for your comments.

I have seen our mechanical meter go backwards - and when away for a long weekend the tens digit actually rolled back one digit too!

And, it's perfectly legal. "Engineering Recommendation G83/1: (2003) - Recommendation for the connection of small scale embedded generators" allows microgeneration installations to feed up to 16 amps per phase in parallel with public low voltage distribution networks.

They don't shout about it - because, as you rightly say, there is no guarantee that modern meters will run backwards.

But the ruling is there to encourage the installation of microgeneration systems - which it obviously does as it means we are getting over 14p per unit compared with the wholesale price of about 4.5p per unit. And, it helps the generating company as it saves them having to generate our overspill and helps them meet their targets of reducing consumption...

You are also right, that I'm not currently encouraging people to rush into installing a Windsave unless they live on a very windy location. We live in quite a windy location otherwise we would never have thought of it and as you gather it is currently only just about proving to be economic.

I'm still interested in the Skyrota - it's a much simpler design than a conventional turbine - it only has to rotate about a vertical axis rather than the conventional rotation about a vertical and power from a horizontal axis - so there are fewer moving parts and probably more reliability. It should also cope better with turbulence.

What I would really like to see is a proper comparison trial of the various small turbine designs, side by side in equally good positions on the same windy site - does any Neepster have a suitable site for this - I'm sure if you announced what you were doing the various manufacturers would be keen to show off their wares and do a deal on the turbines (the best solution would be for the manufacturers to give you the turbines free and you just paid the wholesale price for the electricity generated - that would put their money where their mouth is...)

"Windyman"

Sassinak

I got an offer in my emails the other day from a company that had advertised that they wanted windy sites to set up a series of 3 turbines.
When you cut through the waffle lol They install 3 turbines on your land and in exchange, they pay you a flat rate annual rent (Didn't say how much) OR you could have a discount on a turbine to provide your own electricity (I think it was 20% discount.) This didn't exactly strike me as the bargain of the century haha

Smooth Hound

forgive me for not reading the whole thread, but i just thought id ask , have you thought about solar power, its come on along way over the last couple of years

IainC

JamesB

I completely agree with the other posts about reducing energy consumption first. However, we have pretty much done that now, the only thing I could do is replace the low energy bulbs with LED bulbs once the the low energy bulbs expire. Anyone got other suggestions for reducing energy even further? (without obvious lifestyle changes like only eating raw food and drinking cold water). Oh and we already us ecotricity for electricity.

So, looks like a wind turbine is next. I think the Proven 6kV would be suitable (we have an open and exposed site). Anyone got ideals of actual costs? Proven website says £17k, there is a £4k grant available I think but its still a lot of money. What about the installation costs? I can get a track built for access and probably the concrete pad made (what sort of size pad?) So what am I looking at for assembly and connection?

We dont have £13k available either but maybe now is a good time to borrow money? but the obvious payback would be extended, also do the payback figures quoted take into the account the value of money ie £13k invested in a high interest acc would obviously have a return if it was not invested in a wind turbine

James

Ratchet

Dear JamesB

I'll ask my mate about her 6kW Proven installation and see if she'll mind me posting anonymous data on here. Remember it's double ROCs just now which makes it a quiker payback.

Yours

Ratchete

annepan001

Hi Ratchet

Did you get any info on your pal's Proven 6KW system?

Just cashed in an endowment policy early as it's going backwards, and would like to reinvest the money into renewable energy instead!

Has anyone heard/got any experience of Proven's 15KW system?

Martin

Word is that the 15kw, unlike the smaller turbines in their range is best avoided (hopelessly unreliable)